Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
What page in the HLASM ref are you referring? I only asked you to show some evidence you are right but you continue to refuse. You've told me that application programs can be more complicated than system programs. What at the IRS is so complicated that it needs 8 assembler programmers? What

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Tom Marchant
Yes, there is a single language reference for HLASM (including macros). Yes, other manuals are needed to do effective HLASM programming. The POO is one of these other manuals. So are the Assembler Services reference manuals and guide. The Authorized Assembler guide and References. DFSMS Using Data

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
I agree with you Phil about C macro language being abysmal. The only thing worse is Google's GO language which does not have macros. HLASM macro language should have been replaced years ago with REXX but as it stands, it's still extremely useful. Imagine coding a complex DCB in C or worse yet

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
ROTF,LMAO From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 10:06 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Variable symbol without leading & Addressability is only documented in the POPS (and the

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
Addressability is only documented in the POPS (and the addressability publication). Not HLASM. Show us the page in the HLASM reference that tells us about addressability (not the simple base/offset calculations in the addressing section). Show us where in HLASM ref from 2004 

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Phil Smith III
Beyond all the fighting here, just be glad the assembler macro language is so powerful. Every time I have to do something in C that call out for a macro, I'm appalled at how pathetic that language is!

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
ObDieJungfrauvonOrleansRepeating that won't make it true. The syntax of expressions is described in the HLASM reference, *NOT* in PoOps, and describing it as "various methods for calculating" does not magically stop it from being syntax. From: IBM

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
Whoosh! Lots of l\luck finding information on expressions and addressability in PoOps. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 7:09 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Variable symbol

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
Assembler instruction syntax is not described in the HLASM reference. You are describing various methods for calculating offset, base and index. Only POPS tells you about the syntax. Assume you don't know the LH instruction and don't have the POPS. Using only the HLASM manuals, what is wrong

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
The HLASM Reference describes assembler syntax; PoOps just says what the fields are. Consider LHR3,SYSPRINT+DCBLRECL-IHADCB(R4) USING SYSPRINT LHR3,DCBLRECL Both of these use things that aren't in PoOps. And, no, I'm not talking about the DCBD expansion.

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
Seymour, you said that POPS does not explain how to symbolically encode instructions. What other manual tells you how to code instructions? Tell us where the MVC instruction is documented outside of the POPS? I used PLO as an example because anyone can code MVC without looking at the manual.

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
Water is wet. There is no need to refute claims that nobody made. PLO? PoOps describes the layout of the data, not the DCs needed to generate them. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 5:11 PM To:

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
If the POPS does not explain how to symbolically code each instruction, then point us to the manual that does. For instance, what manual tells me how to code the PLO instruction with multiple syntax variations. As for pseudo-ops, they do not generate machine code but instead are assembler

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
I don't want to believe it, but, alas, I do. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0014e0e4a59b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.uga.edu> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 3:00 PM To: ASSEMBLER-LIST@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re:

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On 6/28/23 12:23:03, Seymour J Metz wrote: Then it's a good thing that "exclusively" came from you, not from me. For your information, I *have* encountered people who write HLASM for a living and have no idea how the instructions are actually encoded. ... and they ask how they can eliminate

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
Then it's a good thing that "exclusively" came from you, not from me. For your information, I *have* encountered people who write HLASM for a living and have no idea how the instructions are actually encoded. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Charles Mills
If you met someone who said he wrote Z assembler for a living, you would not think that he exclusively dealt in USING and SPACE and LCLC. You would assume he would know how MVC worked. Where do you suppose he would have gotten that knowledge? YES, Principles is an architecture manual. I did not

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Charles Mills
The "other manual" for the Assembler is Principles of Operation. If you want to know how COBOL MOVE works, you look at the COBOL Language Reference. But if you want to know how MVC works, you don't look at an assembler manual, you look at Principles. Charles -Original Message- From:

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Abe Kornelis
Jon, I've heard others make that remark before: HLASM is actually two languages. I find the distinction rather arbitrary - both aspects of HLASM are intimately interconnected. As Mr. Metz correctly remarked, there is only a single Language Reference Manual for HLASM. I think that's for a very

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
No; they have the same manuals. Yes, ordinary symbols, sequence symbols, set symbols and system variable symbols are different things. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 1:07 PM To:

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Jon Perryman
Assembler language and Assembler Macro language are 2 separate languages & manuals. Both have variables and symbols but they are very different in concept. In Assembler, symbols have a diverse use, one of which is variable names. On the other hand in the macro language, symbols and variables

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Abe Kornelis
Gil, all, You suggest that a declaration for a variable with a leading ampersand should have the variable name evaluated before it is actually declared. Not only would that break most existing code (I do not recall ever having seen a variable declaration without a leading ampersand), it would

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On 6/28/23 08:17:20, Dave Clark wrote: "IBM Mainframe Assembler List" wrote on 06/28/2023 10:09:27 AM: Just looked at the doc for LCLC says for variable symbol says can be with or with out leading & However when I tried to do a SETC against it I got a assembly error I believe that

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Joseph Reichman
Seymour thanks my feeling exactly I have a ALC cop presentation on macros Doing some research > On Jun 28, 2023, at 10:46 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > Yes, it's legal, no, it's not an ordinary symbol in a [LCL|GBL]x, and yes, > it's confusing. IMHO it would have been better to accept it

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Seymour J Metz
Yes, it's legal, no, it's not an ordinary symbol in a [LCL|GBL]x, and yes, it's confusing. IMHO it would have been better to accept it but issue a warning. From: IBM Mainframe Assembler List on behalf of Joseph Reichman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023

Re: Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Dave Clark
"IBM Mainframe Assembler List" wrote on 06/28/2023 10:09:27 AM: > Just looked at the doc for LCLC says for variable symbol says can be > with or with out leading & > > However when I tried to do a SETC against it I got a assembly error I believe that it means LCLC does not require

Variable symbol without leading

2023-06-28 Thread Joseph Reichman
Hi Just looked at the doc for LCLC says for variable symbol says can be with or with out leading & I did try to assemble a symbol without leading & and it did a assemble however I would think without the leading & it’s an ordinary symbol However when I tried to do a SETC against it I got a