Dear Mark,
You write:
At 12:41 PM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>>Whether or not there is in your opinion such a 'thing' as a communist
state is not the point. The point is that both Yugoslavs did in fact live in
a communist state - as do North Koreans. Both suffer(ed) oppression based on
and justifi
Dear Mark, -
I hit send instead of save. I'll send the rest when I'm done.
Best wishes,
Ian Kluge
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
confidential and for the us
Dear Mark,
You write:
At 12:41 PM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>>Whether or not there is in your opinion such a 'thing' as a communist
state is not the point. The point is that both Yugoslavs did in fact live in
a communist state - as do North Koreans. Both suffer(ed) oppression based on
and justifi
Ian,
At 12:41 PM 10/13/2005, you wrote:
>>Whether or not there is in your opinion such a 'thing' as a communist state
>>is not the point. The point is that both Yugoslavs did in fact live in a
>>communist state - as do North Koreans. Both suffer(ed) oppression based on
>>and justified by the Ma
Dear Mark,
"I didn't say that they did not live in a communist state. I suggested that
there is no such *thing* as a communist state. There are only particular
social constructions (nations) which may have certain observable
similarities. Tito, through his political genius, allowed Yugoslavia
fu
Ian,
At 10:20 PM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>>In fact, I was not thinking of this passage as you assumed but rather of the
>>Guardian's quote which makes it quite clear that natural differences among
>>human beings must form a part of any accurate explanation of social and
>>economic differences am
2005 7:43 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Ian,
At 09:22 PM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>>Unfortunately you assume incorrectly.<<
What did I assume incorrectly?
>>The quote ( did not write it) is from Shoghi Effend
Ian,
At 09:22 PM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>>Unfortunately you assume incorrectly.<<
What did I assume incorrectly?
>>The quote ( did not write it) is from Shoghi Effendi, "Directives from the
>>Guardian" 20.<<
Yes, but that is the passage I quoted in my last message to you! I did not cite
the
Dear Mark,
Unfortunately you assume incorrectly.
The quote ( did not write it) is from Shoghi Effendi, "Directives from the
Guardian" 20.
See also Ocean: Social Inequality
"... Social inequality is the inevitable outcome of the natural inequality
of men. Human beings are different in ability
Ian,
At 11:30 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
>>My point is not so much eliminating (or not) social inequality but to show
>>that by the Guardian's analysis, all social and economic inequalities are not
>>necessarily man-made injustice but simply a reflection of individual
>>differences in human natu
Subject: RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Ian,
At 06:59 PM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
>>Here's an interesting quote to consider amidst all this corporation
bashing:
>>"Social inequality is the inevitable outcome of the natural inequality of
man. Human
Firestorm,
At 02:04 AM 10/9/2005, you wrote:
>>now, i can say i am saying "as a Baha'i" i think usa coproations should be
>>let lose to dismember anything resembling national idenityt and interest...or
>>i can say, i am a member of the Baha'i Faith and as a person involved in
>>branding and for
Ian,
At 06:59 PM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
>>Here's an interesting quote to consider amidst all this corporation bashing:
>>"Social inequality is the inevitable outcome of the natural inequality of
>>man. Human beings are different in ability and should, therefore, be
>>different in their social and
Ian,
Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to make sure I had enough time to respond to
your message.
At 03:53 PM 10/6/2005, you wrote:
>>I know *a lot* of Serbs and Croatians and they would be stunned by your
>>statement that they did not live in a Communist state. So would Milvan Djilas
>>(autho
brent,
i would add another characterisitic to the qualities of the quasi-person of a
corporation...most of the time it doesn;t stop in the middle of a sentence
distracted by a secretary's blouse, caffeine or nictoine deficiencies, etc.
it has that glorious (and i may be being subtly inflammator
markfoster,
first, imho, yeah. totallly. the Baha'i Faith has a clear realisation of the
state of the world at any moment. it's inherent, imho, in there being a Baha'i
Faith.
when i read a doc like centiry of light, or one common Faith, imho i am seeing
a statement about the realisation. such
Brent,
At 08:29 PM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
>>Do you have any life insurance with a cash value? The insurance company has
>>invested in the stock market; that's why the value grows.<<
Sure, and my taxes have gone to support some large corporations, too.
I am not claiming to separate myself from
"I am referring to the American corporatocracy and the corporations which make
it up."
In my opinion, "corporation" is a buzz-word that creates a response of "evil"
in the views of some. I would like to address that.
As a lawyer, I have often created corporations for clients. The process is a
Subject: Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Firestorm,
At 01:39 AM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
>>so long as they do not mistake their passions for understandings of the
Faith's view of the state of the world.<<
Does the Baha'i Faith have an "understa
Firestorm,
At 01:39 AM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
>>so long as they do not mistake their passions for understandings of the
>>Faith's view of the state of the world.<<
Does the Baha'i Faith have an "understanding" of the state of the world?
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a
as somebody who is by trade a pirate, who worked for chavez's people in chicago
at the same time committing various felonies against local 710 of the
teamsters, and committing felony assault on an afl/cio union guard in the
rpesece of chicago police, who turned and shurgged on the basis that wha
Dean,
At 12:14 AM 10/7/2005, you wrote:
>>Perhaps Mark means net importer.<<
I am referring to the American corporatocracy and the corporations which make
it up.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http:
>>"Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; and any
outrage is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods"
>Mark, please clarify. I doubt there is a nation on the planet that is not
an importer.
Perhaps Mark means net importer.
The information contained in this e-
Brent,
At 09:52 PM 10/6/2005, you wrote:
>>Mark, please clarify. I doubt there is a nation on the planet that is not an
>>importer.<<
By importers, I am referring to corporate capitalists and transnational
corporations, i.e., the corporatocracy (corporate power). The U.S. is the
global center
"Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; and any outrage
is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods"
Mark, please clarify. I doubt there is a nation on the planet that is not an
importer.
"Well, the economic abuse of migrant workers is still going on."
To remedy the
Dear mark,
You write:
"Harmonization" can be defined in different ways; and
"uniformity" is one of those definitions. It may sound nice to say
that we should not work at cross-purposes. However, I have *frequently* seen
terms such as "unified action" misused to suppress diversity
Ian,
At 04:47 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote:
>>I said harmonization - which some might regard as uniformity. However,
>>methods must not work at cross-purposes.<<
Yes, you wrote:
"The methodologies do not need to be 'uniform' but they must harmonise and
cannot work at cross-purposes. I suppose one m
Dear Mark,
"Uniformity is, IMO, entirely inconsistent with the principle of unity in
diversity. How can you justify any kind of uniformity from the Baha'i
sources?"
I said harmonization - which some might regard as uniformity. However,
methods must not work at cross-purposes.
You write:
"The
Dear Mark,
You write:
"Uniformity is, IMO, entirely inconsistent with the principle of unity in
diversity. How can you justify any kind of uniformity from the Baha'i
sources?"
I said harmonization - which some might regard as uniformity. However,
methods must not work at cross-purposes.
You
Ian,
At 09:06 PM 10/4/2005, you wrote:
>>The methodologies do not need to be "uniform" but they must harmonise and
>>cannot work at cross-purposes. I suppose one might regard that harmonization
>>as a kind of uniformity.<<
Uniformity is, IMO, entirely inconsistent with the principle of unity in
Dear Mark,
You write:
"The "goals" are contained in the Plans from the House of Justice, the
national plans formulated by NSAs, etc. I see no reason why the achievement
of those goals cannot be accomplished with the framework of the Baha'i
principle of unity in diversity. Shared goals do not nec
Ian,
At 11:28 AM 10/4/2005, you wrote:
>>Working effectively for a cause requires (a) working for the same ultimate
>>goals, (b) working for proximate goals that, at the very least, do not
>>contradict each other, (c) co-ordinating efforts i.e. adopting methodologies
>>that harmonise and do not
Dear Mark,
You ask:
"Does unity of thought and action require that everyone has the same views
and uses the same approaches? That is not my understanding of the concept."
Working effectively for a cause requires (a) working for the same ultimate
goals, (b) working for proximate goals that, at t
Susan,
At 11:08 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>It was the UFW that finally succeeded in organizing most of the grape
>>pickers.<<
They did ultimately, yes.
>>They got started in the 60's but it was largely thanks to the boycott that
>>they were finally successful, especially with Gallo.<<
That w
>>I didn't know you were referring to the UFW.
That union was started in the early to mid 60s - before the petitions even
got started. I thought you meant the Teamsters. Of course, the UFW and the
Teamsters never really got along.<<
Dear Mark,
It was the UFW that finally succeeded in organizing
Hi, Susan,
At 10:17 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>The United Farmworkers was a pretty home-grown movement. It took years forthe
>>AFL-CIO to even recognize them. And the Teamsters only signed sweetheart
>>contracts.<<
>>I didn't know you were referring to the UFW. That union was started in the
>>
"I agree, but do you think it was a result of the boycotts? As I see it, it
was the media focus which led to unions becoming interested in the
population."
Dear Mark,
The United Farmworkers was a pretty home-grown movement. It took years for
the AFL-CIO to even recognize them. And the Teamsters o
Susan,
At 09:57 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Yeah, but Gallo was forced to unionize. That was no small victory.<<
I agree, but do you think it was a result of the boycotts? As I see it, it was
the media focus which led to unions becoming interested in the population.
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster .
Susan,
At 09:57 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>They were pretty effective against South Africa.<<
That is what some governments claimed. Personally, I did not buy it. South
Africa abandoned Apartheid because of popular dissent; and the support for it
among whites had declined, as well. It was, in p
"Sure, but boycotts are rarely effective."
Dear Mark,
They were pretty effective against South Africa.
"Back in the late 60s, when I was a member my school's chapter of the
Students' Democratic Coalition (affiliated with the SDS), I handed out
petitions to boycott California grapes. A lot of us
Susan,
At 09:06 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Well, as I said Baha'is are free to join in boycotts of the worst
>>multi-national offenders. And one doesn't even have to get involved in
>>politics to do that.<<
Sure, but boycotts are rarely effective. Most people seem to have a short
attention spa
"Importers, such as the U.S., have little incentive to protest; and any
outrage is drowned out by the demand for cheaper goods"
Dear Mark,
Well, as I said Baha'is are free to join in boycotts of the worst
multi-national offenders. And one doesn't even have to get involved in
politics to do that.
Susan,
At 07:34 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>It can be if there is sufficient enforcement. And one of the ways to enforce
>>it is to outlaw the import of any goods produced by child labor. If you do
>>that, then adults will have to be hired which raises the wages and when adult
>>wages are raised
"The issue is *how* to eliminate child labor. It obviously cannot be
eradicated merely by outlawing it."
Dear Mark,
It can be if there is sufficient enforcement. And one of the ways to enforce
it is to outlaw the import of any goods produced by child labor. If you do
that, then adults will have t
Susan,
At 06:56 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>Those classes which find it necessary to have their children work are rarely
>>those who have access to a college education in any case.<<
They are the underclass, and child labor is one of the oppressive residues of
the classism (the ideology) in thos
"True, but some of those societies are places like China and India.
Receiving a baccalaureate is, in some ways, even more important in these two
countries than in the U.S. or Western Europe; and child labor, by keeping
people mired in the underclass, makes that unlikely."
Dear Mark,
Those classes
Ian,
At 05:33 PM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>If a so-called 'Baha'i liberation theology' cannot provide or exemplify unity
>>of thought and action, it will soon become part of the problem that
>>Baha'u'llah came to solve rather than a solution.<<
Does unity of thought and action require that everyo
sue.
Best wishes,
Ian Kluge
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark A. Foster
Sent: October 3, 2005 1:34 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: RE: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long quote))
Ian,
At 11:18 AM 10/3/2005, you w
Ian,
At 11:18 AM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>In the exchanges already seen, we observe the main problem in establishing a
>>Baha'i liberation theology: disunity.<<
I am not sure if that can be a measure of a useful construction. People,
including Baha'is, disagree on all sorts of things.
Personal
Susan,
At 10:14 AM 10/3/2005, you wrote:
>>True. However, child labor is rarely even an issue in post-industrial
>>societies. It is in those countries still in the process of industrialization
>>where it has become a problem.<<
True, but some of those societies are places like China and India.
repeat the split between revolutionaries and
reformers.
Best wishes,
Ian Kluge
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Ater
Sent: October 2, 2005 9:24 PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((lon
"I think that there are other problems associated with child labor. For
instance, postindustrial societies, including those in the West, now require
that individuals receive at least a baccalaureate to be competitive in the
global economy. Child labor frequently makes it difficult, if not
impossibl
Susan,
At 10:02 PM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>I'm personally not opposed to child labor for sentimental reasons, however.
>>Children have always worked throughout most of history. But formally they
>>worked under the supervision of their parents or other family members instead
>>of being sent out
Rich,
At 09:13 PM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>Baha'u'llah says we should admonish the rich. How do we do that if we eschew
>>all activism?<<
I agree. It is certainly true that Baha'is, irrespective of their economic
status, are encouraged to exhibit radiant acquiescence in the face of suffering
an
I certainly don't think we must eschew all activism. For instance, if
Baha'is think it appropriate to boycott certain multi-nationals that
routinely contract work out to those who utilize child labor, that's fine,
IMO.
Granted.
We shouldn't oppose governments but there is no reason we can't
"So, as a
Baha'i should I not be active in issues such as forced child labor,
first world incursions into the third world, or a variety of other
issues that the Faith speaks out about. Baha'u'llah says we should
admonish the rich. How do we do that if we eschew all activism?"
Dear Rich,
I certain
Susan Maneck wrote:
One problem in interpreting Baha'i doctrine as "Liberation Theology" lies in
the fact that Baha'is are usually discouraged from involving themselves in
political affairs. Cole regards this a temporary measure adopted by
`Abdu'l-Baha, made in response to the turmoil of the Ira
"A Baha'i liberation theology might use the language of other liberation
theologies, but it would, IMO, need to be grounded in the Baha'i primary
sources."
Yes, the problem with Juan's work is it was too selective in its use of
sources. Sound theology needs to consider and take into account all of
Susan,
At 05:21 PM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>Several years ago Juan Cole wrote an article on the Baha'i Faith and
>>liberation theology. Here is the review I wrote to that artice:<<
There are, of course, many liberation "theologies." Although liberation
theology began among Latin American Jesuits
Several years ago Juan Cole wrote an article on the Baha'i Faith and
liberation theology. Here is the review I wrote to that artice:
In "Baha'u'llah and Liberation Theology" Professor Juan Cole discusses the
implications of Baha'u'llah's revelation in terms of the Liberation Theology
developed wit
Don,
At 09:38 AM 10/2/2005, you wrote:
>>Before people jump in with all six feet, I strongly urge them to read and
>>consider two msgs from the House of Justice. One is found as msg 151 in
>>"Messages from the Universal House of Justice, 1963-1986" I don't believe
>>the other has been publish
Title: Re: Baha'i Liberation "Theology" ((long
quote))
At 8:29 AM -0500 10/2/05, Mark A. Foster wrote:
In a Baha'i liberation "theology,"
what role, if any, should Baha'is play in freeing the poor from
oppressive capitalism? Will we be judged if
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