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On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Stephen Gray wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> I've only seen limited negativity.
>
It depends how you define negativity.
In light of the fact that it creates division amongst a religion whose soul
purpose is to create a un
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Are there any CB statistics?
Well sort of, but their accuracy is in question. We know during the
recent court case you referred to the OBF claimed to have only about
thirty members in the US. Brent will tell you that the hotel room in
which they hold their annual conv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Given all the time "they" spent on criticizing Obama for the church he
> went to for 30 years you would think people would know better.
And generally it is the same people. They want to have it both ways.
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You are sub
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Actually the reasons they give are:
Yes, but I was referring to the fact that this discussion has just
recently re-emerged. It was Fox News that first accused him of being a
Muslim during the election.
>
> His father was a Muslim
Not true. His father was a Marxist an
#x27;llah ie Hidden Words, Seven Valleys, etc.
I've only seen limited negativity.
From: Naison Jones
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:51:13 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also, that Beer Summit is the best proof he's not Muslim.
From: Gilberto Simpson
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 10:30:50 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker si
> He bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia
>
> That last one makes the least sense, because since he bowed to the Emperor
> and Empress of Japan, does that make him a Shintoist?
>
>
> From: Susan Maneck
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Sent: T
PM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
> something bad a
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi all I am new here so forgive me if my words are not perfect to this
thread.
It is interesting to note that covenant-breaker material -as the Bahais call
it- is quite different from the material of different religious sects.
If you look at Christianity you will see tha
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen, your statement that only 10% of the Covenant-breaker websites
is negative, demonstrates the problem, and your unawareness of the
situation.
While discussing these ideas with deepened Baha'is, reading the Sacred
Text and the Master's Last Tablet to America
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration,
> which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration
> decisions of their community, even if they do have a "head" organization at
> the top.
Yes, but I don't think thos
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
> claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
> something bad about being a Muslim.
I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is
really a Muslim
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a
> covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards
> the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared
> a covenant-breaker.
Dear Matt,
I can't sh
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration,
which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration
decisions of their community, even if they do have a "head" organization at
the top. They are more bottom-up than top-dow
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*"Recently at a Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether
Baha'is
might be persecuted now that we have a "Muslim' as a president."*
I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
claiming that he's *not *a Muslim, which implie
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a
covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards
the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared
a covenant-breaker. Someone more versed in the hist
Sonja
>
> *To:* Baha'i Studies
> *Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:43:06 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker
> sites
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
&g
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*"There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Not to mention they have been predicting a violent apocalypse for decades.
If they didn't have the word "Baha'i" in their name, I would have assumed
that they were just another American 'Christian' apocalyptic sect.
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Susan Maneck wrot
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a
> website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be
> becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group.
Dear Steve.
Muhammad Ali's so-called Unitarian Baha'is were co
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 31 Aug 2010 at 9:39, Stephen Gray wrote:
> They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to
> Shoghi Effendi was superceding Baha'u'llah,
But what exactly is the evidence that Baha'u'llah appointed Muhammad
Ali as successor, rather than leaving this decision
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I thought she became a Free Baha'i / Reform Baha'i:
I don't think she started any organization. The Free Baha'is were
established by Herman Zimmer who used Ruth White's ideas. That
organization has long been defunct. The Reform Baha'is is Fred
Glaysher's own inventio
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a
website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be becoming
Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group.
Unitarian Universalist do tend to view they Unitarian Universalism
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I thought she became a Free Baha'i / Reform Baha'i:
Free Bahá'ís
Reform Bahá'ís "To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love
humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal
brotherhood."
- Abdu'l-Baha
They claim to be the mod
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one iffy?) were
> declared CB.
Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker.
In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done
more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus we
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from
> them.
Dear Stephen,
Yes, but this was longer after he had already left the Faith. And he
ignores the fact that Ruth White and Ahmad Sohrab did not agree with
each other. It was Ruth White wh
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I would appreciate clear guidance on how to recognize the wheat from the
> chaff!
Dear Kathryn,
There isn't any 'clear' guidance on this issue but if you have
suspicions you can always contact the Baha'i Internet Agency. They
pretty much keep up with what is on the i
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a
> very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age". He notes, "The
> problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but how
> to get the old ones out."
>
> Problem with
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Clues to what's not what it seems:
> - references to the davidic kingship
> - claims to be or speak for the guardian
> - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
> - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
> the
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Clues to what's not what it seems:
> - references to the davidic kingship
> - claims to be or speak for the guardian
> - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
> - names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
> the Provisions of the Covenant
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I'm currenty this week archively reading most of the writings of Abdu'l-Baha
> and comparing them to his Will & Testament.
Dear Stephen,
What specifically are you looking for here?
warmest, Susan
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You are subscribed
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
> what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
> themselves off as something else.
While we are not strictly prohibited from reading Covenant breaking
material we are discouraged from
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Ian Kluge's Unofficial Orthodox Baha'i website tries to follow the BUPC
> pattern of prophecy tieing in, in fact that is the whole concept of his
> website.
Dear Stephen,
I'm not suggesting that Baha'is who are obsessed with prophecy are
necessarily Covenant breake
ject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
themselves off as something else.
To make it doubly difficul
'i Studies
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
> several groups to tie themselves into prophecie
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
themselves off as something else.
To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist
of one person with a bee in his bo
31, 2010 10:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
> several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha,
> Qur'
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
> several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha,
> Qur'an, Hadith, etc.
Dear Stephen,
The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie
themselves in wit
far is negative.
From: Ahang Rabbani
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 9:35:44 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I read a quote some time ago that speaks to Brent's point about avoiding
certain
sit
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have been avidly watching this conversation unfold, as the question of CB
sites had come up just days before.
I subscribe to Google alerts for Bahai articles and videos. Some of
the sites I've visited look absolutely legitimate but still, I get a funny
feeling. Ofte
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I read a quote some time ago that speaks to Brent's point about avoiding
certain sites and materials.
Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a
very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age". He notes, "The
problem is never how t
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The danger in reading Covenant breaker sites is often not that the
person will be in danger of following these groups; it is that they
destroy one's faith. The confusing answers of Mr. Grey, and his
statement that he is leaving religion altogether, make the point v
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