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dear Sen, HI
the other Persian word for century is sadeh.
Yours/Rohani
--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote:
From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl
Subject: Re: Unity of nations
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Date: Sunday, February 8
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On Feb 4, 2009, at 12:25 AM, David Friedman wrote:
I'm interested as to how those who believe this prophecy has
already been fulfilled interpret All men will adhere to one
religion, will have one common faith. Shoghi Effendi said that
would happen in the
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this is an excellent point:
:Spiritual Assemblies WERE
established in the century in which `Abdu'l-Baha wrote the words, right?
Also, why couldn't the teachings of Baha'u'llah be the spirit of the 20th
century (and beyond,
i think so for 2 reasons:
1. :-) going wayyy
:
From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl
Subject: Re: Unity of nations
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:52 AM
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On 8 Feb 2009 at 8:54, Benjamin La Framboise wrote:
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Sorry...I had question I forgot to ask
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On 6 Feb 2009 at 11:24, David Friedman wrote:
Have you written the House (or should I say the Research Department)
to get their feedback on your view of this prophecy? I would be
interested to see what they'd say. Since you haven't said anything
I'm guessing you
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Hey, Sen...
I'm not sure why you would rule out the 100 years within which I speak
interpretation of both quotes you offered. Spiritual Assemblies WERE
established in the century in which `Abdu'l-Baha wrote the words, right?
Also, why couldn't the teachings of
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Sorry...I had question I forgot to ask:
What is the term/phrase/etc. in Arabic or Persian that means 100-year span
of time? Does one exist? Did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha use this
term/phrase, ever?
Ben
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl
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On 8 Feb 2009 at 8:54, Benjamin La Framboise wrote:
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Sorry...I had question I forgot to ask:
What is the term/phrase/etc. in Arabic or Persian that means 100-year
span of time? Does one exist? Did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha use
this
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Hi Sen,
Anyone who is willing to take the time to study the examples can see that
Abdu'l-Baha uses qarn and `asr, often as a pair together, to refer to an
age, era, dispensation etc; and that Shoghi Effendi regularly translates
this as age, era,
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Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and
differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one
religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and
become a single people. All will dwell in
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The question still remains, how should Baha'is understand Shoghi Effendi's
statement that:
One of the great events, 'Abdu'l-Bahá has, in His Some Answered Questions,
affirmed, which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that
Incomparable Branch
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On 29 Jan 2009 at 16:58, Gary Selchert wrote:
4) The unbelieving option will not be put to rest by any of these.
Nothing in any of the three believing options can decisively refute,
to the satisfaction of everyone who asks, the contention that Shoghi
Effendi was
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David has asked:
What would have to happen historically for the Baha'i Faith to
be proven wrong?
What has to happen historically for the Baha'i Faith to be proven wrong is the
same as what would have to happen historically for any other faith to be proven
wrong.
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Gary Selchert wrote:
This certainly seems to be implicit in the non-binding narrative carried forward by One
Common Faith, prepared under the supervision of, and commended to our attention and study
by, but lacking any assertion of infallibility by, the Universal
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actually, inerrancy would prevent house from being conflated with
principles unless it was a house of cards..in which case it would be burned
by a Whisper of the Voice...
ezekiel 14:7...et seq.
so far as the people type tendency to do such thinga...i see it all the
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david,
according to accepted practice, one would ask for defintions of nations,
peace and established.
the one would hammer out the definitional issues, using either Baha'u'llah or
self as the anvil.
occasinally one would ask what kind of crack other other was
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sen,
;It is not the familiarity of the governments of the nations that we
must seek, but familiarity below the grassroots
yeah...in the dust.
i recall once making this point (without an answer back) with a professor
from michigan or wherever about the meaning of
explain to a non-Baha'i that we already have world
unity, that the nations are already united?
We don't. We - the world - don't have world unity or unity of
nations, and we (the Bahais) don't try to claim that we do when we
obviously don't.
How would one also argue that the unity of nations
:
..this wondrous revelation [duur], this glorious century [qarn] (The
Promised Day is Come, p. 119)
..ere the close of this century [qarn] and of this age [`asr] (The
World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 205)
How would one explain to a non-Baha'i that we already have world
unity, that the nations
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David,
There is no way to explain this. To a believer in literal inerrancy, nothing
can change their mind, they will always rationalize any amount of contrary
evidence. Thus, you can not have a rational discussion with a Christian or
Islamic fundamentalist. God
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It is apparent to any person that peace is not established.
I'd like to point out that the Universal House of Justice has never
suggested that peace has been established. They seem to be
interpreting 'unity of nations' as the development of a global
identity
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Nor, for that matter, was `Abdu'l-Baha.
- Original Message -
From: Dean Betts fdbe...@mindspring.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Unity of nations
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Perhaps all
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David Friedman wrote:
How would one explain to a non-Baha'i that we already have world
unity, that the nations are already united? No non-Baha'i would agree.
The only reason Baha'is believe it is by having a 'watered down'
definition of world peace, one that doesn't
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This is the stage which the world is now approaching, the stage of world
unity, which, as Abdu'l-Baha assures us, will, in this century, be securely
established. (PDC)
How would one explain to a non-Baha'i that we already have world unity, that
the nations
it is
The fifth candle is the unity of nations [wahdat-e watan] --a unity
which in this century [qarn] will be securely established,
causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as
citizens of one common fatherland.
but in his earlier translation, published
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sen
;although translation is not the sphere of the
Guardian's infallibility
i would offer that only the Guardian is ther determiner of the Guardian's
situational conferredness (to neologise) of infalliblity.
i tend, being the smple beast of the fields tht i am to
of unity
tablet.)
the unity of nations, a unity which in this century [qarn] will be
securely established (ditto)
ere the close of this century [qarn] and of this age [`asr] (WOB 205)
in every dispensation [qarn], the light of divine guidance (WOB 36)
when Christ appeared, twenty centuries [qarn] ago
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sen,
:but the
translators are following Shoghi Effendi's practice, when translating
similar phrases in Baha'u'llah's writings:
that suggests to me that the translators are accepting the infallibility of
the Guardian--not that of potential readers.
i find that a
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On 12 Jan 2009 at 17:26, Don Calkins wrote:
And you really believe that tho' Shoghi Effendi translated the phrase
as this century, what Abdu'l-Baha really meant was this age/era?
I not only think it, I can document it. I'm going to do that in my
next blog, God
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Dear Sen...
You said:
I've been asked a couple of times which language I think young Bahai
scholars should learn first, Persian or Arabic? When asked in France,
I replied, French; when asked in England I replied, English. By
that I mean that a study of the
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benjamin,
an actual study of english, like get real and get over study wouldidictae that
century
means 10 x 10 ...since cricket and snooker players use the term.
they might look at an explanation from the Master for another number...to get
a range for
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i am being randomly amused by arguments against sen's point of view that depend
on fallibility by the House or the beloved Guardian--in order to preserve the
view that some individual (other than sen) is right.
the relevant cite appears to be (and if i missed
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On 13 Jan 2009 at 10:44, Benjamin La Framboise wrote:
The teachings of Baha'u'llah are the light of this age and the
spirit of this century. (Selections from the writings of
'Abdu'l-Baha, page 107)
Just curious, why wouldn't this have been translated
that as
'century', and his hearers jumping to the conclusion that he means
the 20th gregorian century. I do not think Abdu'l-Baha anywhere
explicitly connects either the Lesser Peace or the Unity of Nations,
or anything analogous, to our western 20th century.
In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Baha
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On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:11 AM, Sen Sonja wrote:
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What's your point Don?
Sen
You said that all the texts that refer to the unity of nations being
established in this century all came from pilgrim's notes. In fact
the selection I
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On 12 Jan 2009 at 7:21, Don Calkins wrote:
You said that all the texts that refer to the unity of nations being
established in this century all came from pilgrim's notes.
No, I said:
..I think that Taherzadeh and others are mistaken in saying that
Abdu'l-Baha
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On Jan 12, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Sen Sonja wrote:
On 12 Jan 2009 at 7:21, Don Calkins wrote:
You said that all the texts that refer to the unity of nations being
established in this century all came from pilgrim's notes.
No, I said:
..I think that Taherzadeh
that
Abdu'l-Baha promised both orally and in writing, that the unity of
nations will be established during the twentieth century and the UHJ
saying that Abdul-Bahá made statements linking the establishment
of the unity of nations to the twentieth century and citing the '7
candles' tablet as its
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On Jan 12, 2009, at 5:02 PM, Sen Sonja wrote:
No Don, the text is an authentic tablet. If you read the 7 candles
tablet carefully, you will see that it does not refer to the 20th
century. It refers to this century.
And you really believe that tho' Shoghi Effendi
to the conclusion that he means
the 20th gregorian century. I do not think Abdu'l-Baha anywhere
explicitly connects either the Lesser Peace or the Unity of Nations,
or anything analogous, to our western 20th century.
In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Baha, elucidating further His noble
theme
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Hello all… Hi Sen, Most specifically I was referring to Shoghi Effendi’s
comment in *** The Promised Day Is Come *** (Wilmette,1980 printing) p. 121:
‘One of the great events, 'Abdu'l-Bahá has, in His Some Answered Questions,
affirmed, which is to occur in the Day
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On 5 Jan 2009 at 9:46, Gary Selchert wrote:
âOne of the great events, 'Abdu'l-Bahá has, in His Some Answered
Questions, affirmed, which is to occur in the Day of the
manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá'u'lláh] is the
hoisting of the Standard of God
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Dear Sen,
I understand that, below, Shoghi Effendi is reminding us about what
`Abdu'l-Baha has said. He's not just quoting `Abdu'l-Baha, however; he is
using the term 'century' himself. If it was only `Abdu'l-Baha using this
term, and we had His definition to guide
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On 5 Jan 2009 at 17:05, Benjamin La Framboise wrote:
I understand that, below, Shoghi Effendi is reminding us about what
`Abdu'l-Baha has said. He's not just quoting `Abdu'l-Baha, however;
he is using the term 'century' himself. If it was only `Abdu'l-Baha
using
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Sorry. I may be a bear of very little brain, but the notion that Shoghi Effendi
would write a long epistle in English, use the English word century
twenty-five times, twenty-one of which refer to a conventional hundred-year
span, and then without warning or comment,
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On 3 Jan 2009 at 14:52, Don Calkins wrote:
The reasons the UHJ gave are here:
http://bahairants.com/fahrenheit-145-77.html
As I remember, those were not the reasons the House of Justice gave.
Where is the text of the actual letter you rcvd concerning your
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sen
:-)
first, portion requires that i note how randomlu amused i am by the amount
of common ground we see, and the difference in our angle of view in doing
it..:-)
: that the
consensus of the faithful is a source of Bahai teachings. In this the
Bahai Faith
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don,
my limited ability to be swimming within TG suggests to me that the name sen
isn't in the Tablet of theBranch or whatever It is, or the WT, and therefore,
yes: sen's understadning of the Faith is seriously flawed.
as near as i can tell, that would be the
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DEAR MR.FRIEDMAN,
YOU R RIGHT TT THE 2 TARGETS WILL HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.PLS ALSO NOTE THAT
THOSE PRINCIPALS WERE NOT MENTIONED BY BAHAULLAH FR THE FIRST TIME.
IN THE IRANIAN RELIGIOUS CULTURE IT WAS VERY COMMON TO BELIEVE IN UNITY OF
NATIONS AND WORLD PEACE UNDER
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sen,
:establishment
does not equal manfestation.
:mankind will see the establishment of the
Lesser Peace
who is mankind in this sentence?
i dimly recall a statement that the various heap of praise laid upon the
letters of the Living by the Bab were all about
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ron,
i offer again, the infallibility of the Voice, the complete errancy of the
human (not animal) ear.
the word generation is used with 2 closely related meaning in the Bible.
one might be reduced to profit motive
the other to the ring around the rosy of how
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On 2 Jan 2009 at 23:04, Gary Selchert wrote:
Throughout the twentieth century, many prominent
Bahaâis were enkindled by the certainty that first the calamity,
then the Lesser Peace, and the resulting unity of nations would be a
very visible, tangible, world
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On Jan 3, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Sen Sonja wrote:
This is the scuttlebut on discussion lists, but there's no truth in
it. The reasons the UHJ gave are here:
http://bahairants.com/fahrenheit-145-77.html
As I remember, those were not the reasons the House of Justice
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I would like to present some thoughts I have on this thread. First the
thread is title Unity of nations but seem to be more concern with
infallibility.The two are not as directly link as some people believe.
That the Universal House of Justice and the writings
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Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Sorry for nit-picking but isn't the second category non-plenary
inerrancy? In other others, the verbal part is a little bit redundant
since we are talking about a scripture which consists of words. The
distinction is whether you want to say
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uless u conflate the words when and by which time as being the same, i
donlt see that reading.
and accuracy of language requires me not to conflate them.
when spring comes the daffodils will bloom does no equal january yet
one does not equal the other without
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mark,
lololol..
:verbal plenary inerrancy from the Prophets,
i do expect such as part of the Mosty Great Unity...which leaves me realising
that humans need to run quite a bit faster than they wish to.
it might be of some utility to note that rther reently i was
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i would offer that the beloved and infallible Guardian somwehere or other (i am
all about precise cites) suggested invoking hypotheticals when there was an
actual world to play in was not totally what he wished for.
:Universal House of Justice
don't have plenary
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Paul McKibben wrote:
With the Universal House of Justice, it is the (I am tempted to put
thenext word in caps)decisions that is infallible and that means in
respectto the interests of the Baha'i Faith has a whole it will guide it on the
best course in these uncertain
prominent Baha’is were enkindled by the certainty that first the calamity,
then the Lesser Peace, and the resulting unity of nations would be a very
visible, tangible, world-dominating reality prior to 1 January 2001. They had
good reason to hold these views. It is not easy to interpret World
of the meaning of infallibility. Throughout the
twentieth century, many prominent Baha'is were enkindled by the certainty
that first the calamity, then the Lesser Peace, and the resulting unity of
nations would be a very visible, tangible, world-dominating reality prior to
1 January 2001
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Dear Susan,
On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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My problem is, it seems to me that most Baha'is including famous ones who
speak at Conferences and etc. probably do not find my understanding
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Yes we have but I am still troubled.
Dear Ron,
Then maybe it is your own tolerance level you need to work on.
That is reassuring to me but I also see and hear conflicting attitudes.
So let's make room for conflicting attitutdes.
I wish I knew why Sen was
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Mark, thanks, your feedback is mot helpful. I think I will start using your
term plenary inerrancy to refer to what I don't believe in as valid
definition of infallibility. I need a shorthand for a complex concept.
In the interest of brevity, I will not quote the bulk o
the letter from the research department on the
Lesser Peace and found something interesting. They say that the unity
of nations should not be regarded as being synonymous with the Lesser
Peace, yet from a House letter from the 80's it appears that they used
to be of the understanding
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Hi, Ron:
I think I will start using your term plenary inerrancy to refer to
what I don't believe in as valid definition of infallibility. I need a
shorthand for a complex concept.
Personally, unless I am addressing Protestant evangelicals, or
discussing
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I was looking through the letter from the research department on the Lesser
Peace and found something interesting. They say that the unity of nations
should not be regarded as being synonymous with the Lesser Peace, yet from a
House letter from the 80's it appears
are influenced by His
Revelation. We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First,
there will come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be
achieved...
The wording of the last sentence, unless I'm seriously mistaken,
surely indicates that they used to think the two would
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The wording of the last sentence, unless I'm seriously mistaken, surely
indicates that they used to think the two would happen at the same time?
Dear David,
That's my impression as well.
warmest, Susan
__
You are
of peace among the nations; therefore, all the forces which are focused on
accomplishing these ends are influenced by His Revelation. We know, however,
that peace will come in stages. First, there will come the Lesser Peace,
when the unity of nations will be achieved...
The wording of the last
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My problem is, it seems to me that most Baha'is including famous ones who
speak at Conferences and etc. probably do not find my understanding
acceptable. This obviously worries me.
Dear Ron,
I think we've discussed this issue many times before. They may not
share
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Ursus Maximus wrote:
This is the first time I've encountered the term plenary inerrancy'.
I would appreciate it if you would expand on this term and its
application to our Faith. It is important to me.
Hi, Ron:
In Protestantism, there are two major views of
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