Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> On Jul 17, 2016, at 12:12 PM, John Forecast wrote: >> >> >>> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:06 AM, John

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > with a little left over). Our largest Unibus machine was an 11/750 > (though we had an VAX 8300 w/DWBUA, and an NMI-based VAX 8350 as our > largest machine, both purchased for supporting our VAXBI product > line). I

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 12:12 PM, John Forecast wrote: > > >> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:06 AM, John Forecast wrote: >>> ... I suppose so. Rumor had it that

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:06 AM, John Forecast wrote: >> >>> ... >>> I suppose so. Rumor had it that Phase I only existed on RSX, but it >>> appears that there was a PDP-8 implementation as

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 11:06 AM, John Forecast wrote: > >> ... >> I suppose so. Rumor had it that Phase I only existed on RSX, but it appears >> that there was a PDP-8 implementation as well. Phase II was implemented on >> lots of DEC systems, from TOPS-10 to RT-11 to

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Jul 16, 2016, at 6:56 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: >> >> ... >> The specs were (and are) freely available. (I'm not 100% sure that they were >> free-as-in-beer back then, but they are

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > ... > I suppose so. Rumor had it that Phase I only existed on RSX, but it appears > that there was a PDP-8 implementation as well. Phase II was implemented on > lots of DEC systems, from TOPS-10 to RT-11 to

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 16, 2016, at 6:56 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > ... > The specs were (and are) freely available. (I'm not 100% sure that they were > free-as-in-beer back then, but they are now). I assume you had to pay for the cost of printing. They could be freely

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016, ste...@malikoff.com wrote: In the mid 80s our Uni teaching 11/780 running VMS would groan and creak under the strain of 50 students logged on. I was told that over at Sydney Uni, their 11/780s were running a very modded and tweaked Unix and could have a hundred or more

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On 07/16/2016 03:21 PM, ste...@malikoff.com wrote: > In the mid 80s our Uni teaching 11/780 running VMS would groan and > creak under the strain of 50 students logged on. I was told that over > at Sydney Uni, their 11/780s were running a very modded and tweaked > Unix and could have a hundred or

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On 15/07/16 14:49, Swift Griggs wrote: All I'm saying is that the presence of multiple IP stacks looks to me to be unwieldy, organic, and incremental. VMS came with DECnet built-in (although you had to license it). If you wanted TCP/IP there was UCX, which you had to install separately. The

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

jonas said: > VMS is an > enterprise-grade operating system, designed for serious production work. > At the time VMS was conceived, Unix was a university product, used for > teaching and research, not for heavy production work. In the mid 80s our Uni teaching 11/780 running VMS would groan and

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

6/2016 05:55 (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)     > From: Jonas     > At the time VMS was conceived, Unix was a university product, used for     > teaching and research, not for he

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Jul 16, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Jonas > >> At the time VMS was conceived, Unix was a university product, used for >> teaching and research, not for heavy production work. > > Err, not quite. In the mid-70's, the PWB system at Bell: > >

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> From: Jonas > At the time VMS was conceived, Unix was a university product, used for > teaching and research, not for heavy production work. Err, not quite. In the mid-70's, the PWB system at Bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWB/UNIX was being used by a community of about

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Sean Conner wrote: What I've read about VMS makes me think the networking was incredible. To be fair, I think you have to think about what was around when VMS was developed, and what DEC was competing with. VMS is an enterprise-grade operating system, designed for

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 10:08:40AM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > DECnet might be totally integrated and awesome, but it's also > > proprietary, seldom used, > > I think it is only semi-proprietary. I've seen open documentation that > at the time (I don't think I have it handy now) I thought was >

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On 15 July 2016 at 07:37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think TCP networking on VMS is a bit of a bodge, but back when I > used it every day in the 1980s, we didn't _have_ any Ethernet > interfaces in the entire company - *everything* we did was via sync > and async serial. How

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On 15 July 2016 at 07:24, wrote: > As a comp sci student I loved using VMS on our 11/780s at Uni, from first > year through final year where we also had the use of a Gould PN6080 UNIX mini. > (Aside - the Gould had one good drive, one flaky. The OS and staff accounts > were

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On 14 July 2016 at 22:50, Swift Griggs wrote: > Strengths versus Unix: > * More granular authentication/authorization system built in from very >early days I'm told. "capabilities" style access control, too. > * Great hardware error logging that generally tells you

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> > That said, it was easier (to me) to write full-on apps and utilities in > > DCL than sh or csh. > > [...] Fortunately, most folks seem to > agree and csh is pretty niche these days. That's not to say there aren't > very enthusiastic users of csh, too. *tcsh*, yes. I now find it very

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed. As you've seen, I use both. No need to be all "Commodore vs > Atari" about it. ;-) Hehe, I forgot about that. Here I am liking both of those, now too. I think I was playing with Hatari yesterday and eUAE last week ! > I mean vs

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It was a huge deal in the late 80s and into the 90s. I was on both >> sides, so mostly, I watched. > > This thread has definitely been the most civil discussion and set of >

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It was a huge deal in the late 80s and into the 90s. I was on both > sides, so mostly, I watched. This thread has definitely been the most civil discussion and set of anecdotes I've seen when folks discuss VMS and Unix in the same thread. I usually

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Richard Loken wrote: >> And I don't get this notion about lifting the network code out of Tru64 >> since VAX/VMS had UCX (not my favourite network package) before the >> Alpha and associated OSF/1,

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Mouse wrote: > >> DECnet might be totally integrated and awesome, but it's also >> proprietary, seldom used, > > ... > However, IIRC it also has a fairly small hard limit on the number of > hosts it supports. I don't remember exactly

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On Jul 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Mouse wrote: > >> DECnet might be totally integrated and awesome, but it's also >> proprietary, seldom used, > > I think it is only semi-proprietary. I've seen open documentation that > at the time (I don't think I have it handy now)

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> DECnet might be totally integrated and awesome, but it's also > proprietary, seldom used, I think it is only semi-proprietary. I've seen open documentation that at the time (I don't think I have it handy now) I thought was sufficient to write an independent implementation, both for Ethernet

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Richard Loken wrote: > And I don't get this notion about lifting the network code out of Tru64 > since VAX/VMS had UCX (not my favourite network package) before the > Alpha and associated OSF/1, Digital Unix, Tru64 Unix. The candidate for > lifting code would be Ultrix

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> On 15 Jul 2016, at 14:41, Richard Loken wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Mouse wrote: > >>> Personally, given the mess of MultiNet, TCP/IP Services, and TCPWare, >>> I wouldn't make that statement about networking *at all*. >> >> If you think of "networking" as being

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > Big Fat Disclaimer: I know very little about VMS. I'm a UNIX zealot. > > I work with a lot of VMS experts and being around them has taught me a lot > more about it than I ever thought to learn > ... I don't see any

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

Swift said: > I think VMS is neat. As a comp sci student I loved using VMS on our 11/780s at Uni, from first year through final year where we also had the use of a Gould PN6080 UNIX mini. (Aside - the Gould had one good drive, one flaky. The OS and staff accounts were on one, student accounts and

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Mouse wrote: Personally, given the mess of MultiNet, TCP/IP Services, and TCPWare, I wouldn't make that statement about networking *at all*. If you think of "networking" as being "IP-based networking", yeah, probably. But there's a lot more to networking than just IP.

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

> Personally, given the mess of MultiNet, TCP/IP Services, and TCPWare, > I wouldn't make that statement about networking *at all*. If you think of "networking" as being "IP-based networking", yeah, probably. But there's a lot more to networking than just IP. Specifically, I was talking about

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Thu, 14 Jul 2016, Sean Conner wrote: > > What I've read about VMS makes me think the networking was incredible. > > Big Fat Disclaimer: I know very little about VMS. I'm a UNIX zealot. > > I work with a lot of VMS experts and being

Re: VMS stability back in the day (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

I was running a 3 node VAXcluster in the late 1980s. We had two 8550s and an 8820 connected via a CI star coupler to two HSC70 storage controllers and 24 RA81 drives; two upright tape (TU78s?) drives too. The drives were connected to both HSC70s in RAID 1 pairs. We had 11 pairs, a spare and a