Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-08-02 Thread John Kelsey
-Original Message- From: "Major Variola (ret)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Jul 30, 2004 10:25 PM To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies The "profitably&quo

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-30 Thread Bob Jonkman
This is what J.A. Terranson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said about "Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarde" on 24 Jul 2004 at 18:44 > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > > > There might be blind cypherpunks, we don't discriminate[1], > > There Is No We. > > > [1] the original phone phreak

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-30 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 12:36 PM 7/29/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >"Remember that the spookfabs don't have to contend with *economics and >yield*." > >Damn, this is precisely where I wish Tim May was still around. We are all just echoes of the voices in his head. But I did work for a company that owned fabs. And h

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-30 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 12:07 AM 7/29/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> Did you know that your teeth enamel contain isotope ratios that >> encode regions where you might have grown up around age 6? > >Yes. I am also aware that tooth enamel has the interesting propert

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-29 Thread Tyler Durden
hey can do with a chip or chipset, and implies that they won't be orders of magnitude better at opening up LOTS of traffic. (In non-troll mode.) -TD From: "Major Variola (ret)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Email t

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-27 Thread Tyler Durden
Variola wrote... While this cannot be discounted in toto, the tech comes to them from academia (most of the time), so generally, if you are widely read, you'll have a pretty good idea of what's *possible*. You are likely dead-on accurate about the fabs though. In the *public* lit. Well, perhaps b

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-25 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Bill Stewart wrote: > Cap'n Crunch may have bad teeth, but his eyes were fine the last time I saw > him. Yeah, but what's left of his mind is more like what's left of his teeth :-( -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF "...justice is a duty towards tho

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-25 Thread Bill Stewart
At 04:44 PM 7/24/2004, J.A. Terranson wrote: > [1] the original phone phreaks were blind, This is a ridiculous statement, and even worse, leaks information about your nym: [young enough to have not been there]. You are thinking of Joe "Whistler" Joe Egressia (sp?), and the kid form New York whose n

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-25 Thread Declan McCullagh
On Sun, Jul 18, 2004 at 10:35:19PM -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > You don't know about tape robots, or offline indexing, eh? FYI from a recent trip to the NSA crypto museum: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/storagetek-automated-cartridge-system.html http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-25 Thread Declan McCullagh
On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 01:11:58AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > Google's Gmail is an interesting case. > Unlike Councilman's ISP, who were sneaky greedy wiretapping bums, > Google tells you that they'll grep your mail for advertising material, > and tells you how much of that they'll leak to the ad

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-25 Thread James A. Donald
-- On 23 Jul 2004 at 12:40, Thomas Shaddack wrote: > Depends on whom. Often the money are the main motivation. Of > course, your own country won't pay you as well as the other > one, and will try to appeal to your "patriotism" like a bunch > of cheapskates - it's better to be a contractor. The

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-24 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > for free. You just have to start pulse dialing with the hook before the > autodialer kicks in; The easier way is to wait for the retard to answer, then curse at them. They'll hang up, and in ~60 seconds you'll be back to a dial tone, and the dialer w

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-24 Thread Riad S. Wahby
"Major Variola (ret)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Back when the protocols were unprotected... much like the 'net today :-) Hell, as recently as three years ago the pay phones in Boston could still be red boxed. It may actually still be possible---I haven't tried in a while. Haven't done it here

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-24 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > There might be blind cypherpunks, we don't discriminate[1], There Is No We. > [1] the original phone phreaks were blind, This is a ridiculous statement, and even worse, leaks information about your nym: [young enough to have not been there]. Y

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-24 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 09:47 PM 7/23/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >> What I meant was, Ames and that FBI dude Hansen (sp?), at least the KGB >> got Ames' wife as part of the package, whereas the FBI CI dude >> let his wife off as part of the deal he cut. Nice xian that he was, he >> was into strippers. > >Aren't w

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-22 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 12:39 AM 7/22/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> I'm following the Principle of not underestimating the >> adversary, > >Don't go overboard: remember that there is a difference between >underestimating your adversary and unrealistically *over*es

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-22 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 10:27 AM 7/22/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >>Gilmore et al used a bunch of old Sun Chassis for his & Kocher's >>DEScracker. You think this is somehow more than 100 watts, in a >>diplo suitcase, nowadays? My point was, Gilmore et al were way behind what's capable. Proof of concept needn't be c

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-22 Thread Tyler Durden
Variola: You say a lotta good shit here, but you're really out of your area in this case. You seem to miss the basic points, and then fill in your blindspot with pure theoretical conjecture. Let me point out some of the lil' flaws in your thinking With all due respect, you think Ft. Meade

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-21 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > I'm following the Principle of not underestimating the > adversary, Don't go overboard: remember that there is a difference between underestimating your adversary and unrealistically *over*estimating your adversary. > who does plenty of R&D, jus

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-21 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 10:12 PM 7/21/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >> >> With all due respect, you think Ft. Meade uses the same COTS crap >> as you are forced to deal with? Bwah hah hah. > >Sorry Major, I'm gonna have to call you on that one. Yes, they are >lightin

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-21 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > At 10:09 AM 7/21/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > >Variola wrote... > > > >Dark fiber. > > > >"Dark Fiber" ain't a talisman you merely wave at data to get it to > magically > >move to where you want it to.You've got to LIGHT that fiber, and to > li

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-21 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 11:28 AM 7/21/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > >As for the cable landings, likewise I've never heard anyone mention that >they saw any government equipment at the landings, so I suspect it's >relatively minimal. I'm sorry but I have to puke at your cluelessness. Do you actually think the folks

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-21 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 10:09 AM 7/21/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >Variola wrote... > >Dark fiber. > >"Dark Fiber" ain't a talisman you merely wave at data to get it to magically >move to where you want it to.You've got to LIGHT that fiber, and to light >that fiber you need LOTS and LOTS of power-hungry, space-occupy

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-21 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Tue, Jul 20, 2004 at 08:55:36PM -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > The thread was about wiretapping. My point was that you can record > at linespeed an analyze at leisure. Nothing more, nothing less. This makes no sense. Most of the traffic out there is garbage, and it is ridiculously expen

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-20 Thread Bill Stewart
At 09:00 PM 7/20/2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 10:12 AM 7/19/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >No, I think I'm becoming convinced that they can't yet get ALL of it. Enjoy your childhood while it lasts. Its a beautiful time. I think you're talking at cross-purposes. If you're the Good Guy, tryin

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-20 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 10:12 AM 7/19/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >"Gimme an intel IXA network processor and no problem. ATM is fixed >size data, not as tricky as IP decoding. Predicatable bandwidth. >Stream all into megadisks, analyze later." > >I'm gonna have to challenge this bit here, Variola. Please. Truth r

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-20 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 07:56 AM 7/19/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >> You don't know about tape robots, or offline indexing, eh? > >None of which qualify here - remember, the discussion was based upon a >"quiet" implementation. The thread was about wiretapping. My

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-19 Thread Tyler Durden
As suggested, tapping oversea fibres in shallow waters is probably the Way To Do It. Apparently NSA has it's own splicing sub for this purpose. As for US fibers, I've spoken to folks who have actually seen the splice in cable landings that went over to W. VA or wherever. -TD __

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-19 Thread Tyler Durden
it will be packed into a GIG-BE OC-768 back to storage and processing.) -TD From: "Major Variola (ret)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies Date: Sun, 18 Jul 200

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-19 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 07:56:05AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: > None of which qualify here - remember, the discussion was based upon a > "quiet" implementation. A VPN link from a *nivore box streaming filtered info is pretty quiet. There are plenty of dedicated network processors for packet fi

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-19 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >Besides that old fashioned transport diversity, we have the original > >problem: even if you could do it (maybe in three to five years), what > are > >you going to do with the data you've snarfed? Backhaul it? Shove it > into > >TB cassettes?

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Tyler Durden wrote: > JA, ya' gotta good point here. Or at least, this sheds a lot of doubt on > things. > > But then again, the purpose of GIG-BE may be precisely to move an optical > copy (use a $100 splitter) back to processing centers where the traffic is > stored. In thi

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Tyler Durden
nd then CALEA whatever circuit that conversation came out of. -TD From: "J.A. Terranson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies Date: Sun,

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Tyler Durden wrote: > "I think it would be far easier if WAN protocols were plain GBit Ethernet." > > WAN won't be 1GbE, but it will probably be 10GbE with SONET framing, or else > OC-192c POS (ie, PPP-encapsulated HDLC-framed MPLS). In either case, I > suspect it will be far

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Tyler Durden
a big fat pipe than to try to break out a zillion lil' tiny DS1s. -TD From: Eugen Leitl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "J.A. Terranson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Tyler Durden
. -TD From: Eugen Leitl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "J.A. Terranson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:46:10 +0200 On Sun, Jul 18, 2004 at 06:13:49AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Sun, Jul 18, 2004 at 07:50:16AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: > I have seen a passive tap on a gig line used for IDS, true, but that's > pretty close to the state of the art right now. There's an issue with There are dedicated network processors, though, and one can outsorce the filter bottlen

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Jul 18, 2004 at 06:13:49AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: > > > A NIC? You gotta realize that we're talking about mesh circuits here: > > OC3-OC48 trunks, OC192 backbones... This is no small job. A mom/pop or > > At times of 10 GBit Ethernet, OC19

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Sun, Jul 18, 2004 at 06:13:49AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: > A NIC? You gotta realize that we're talking about mesh circuits here: > OC3-OC48 trunks, OC192 backbones... This is no small job. A mom/pop or At times of 10 GBit Ethernet, OC192 data rate doesn't seem all that intimidating. A

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote: > I was thinking about a box at each incoming/outgoing point with a NIC in > passive mode. A NIC? You gotta realize that we're talking about mesh circuits here: OC3-OC48 trunks, OC192 backbones... This is no small job. A mom/pop or midsized regional mayb

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Sun, Jul 18, 2004 at 05:55:02AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: > Now, *mirroring* to a couple of choke points, sure, but then you ave > transit and other associated costs (you gotta haul the data to all of the > collectors). I was thinking about a box at each incoming/outgoing point with a NIC i

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread J.A. Terranson
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote: > For those of you who have worked at major ISPs, can the fact that traffic is > routed through a few "customer" boxes be hidden from employees? Speaking as someone who qualifies: no. However, the fact that you even asked the question begs another questio

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-18 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Sat, Jul 17, 2004 at 02:06:40PM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: > On the other hand, 100,000 employees times two disk drives per desktop > and a few departmental servers can get you that much capacity. I understand there is this thing called a black budget. The production rate limit of plain text

zks source (Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies)

2004-07-13 Thread Adam Back
You could try sending an email to Austin Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> to see if he could organize releasing source for remaining freedom related source that they are not currently using. Adam On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 02:34:04PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > I wonder if the mail 2.0 code could be public

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-07 Thread Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
>I can't imagine any intelligence professional wasting her time reading >the crap at times coming over this list. As of mid 2000 most of traffic is recorded. By this time 'most' is very close to 'all'. But if you e-mail someone with account on the same local ISP, using dial-in at the recipient

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-07 Thread Steve Schear
At 07:28 AM 7/7/2004, Tyler Durden wrote: "If you think the cable landings in Va/Md are coincidental, you are smoking something I've run out of. Its all recorded. I'm sure the archiving and database groups in Ft. Meade will get a chuckle out of your "the right to" idioms." Well, I don't actually

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-07 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 10:28:01AM -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > Well, I don't actually believe it's all recorded. As I've attempted to > explain previously, "they" almost certainly have risk models in place. When > several variables twinkle enough (eg, origination area, IP address, > presence o

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-07 Thread Tyler Durden
. There's probably some kind of key word search that either diverts the copy into storage or into the short list for an analyst to peek it. -TD From: "Major Variola (ret)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Email tappin

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-07 Thread Bill Stewart
At 02:47 PM 7/6/2004, Hal Finney wrote: Thomas Shaddack writes: > There are various email forwarding services, which are nothing more than a > SMTP server with pairs of [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Right, mostly for use as disposable email addresses. I've used spamgourmet to good effect

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-07 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 11:36:11PM -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > At 06:58 AM 7/7/04 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > >I can't imagine any intelligence professional wasting her time reading > >the crap at times coming over this list. > > Frankly sir, that's because you have no idea of their budget

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 06:58 AM 7/7/04 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: >I can't imagine any intelligence professional wasting her time reading >the crap at times coming over this list. Frankly sir, that's because you have no idea of their budget, or their fascistic urges.Its not paranoia to think you're tapped, its rat

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 09:40:29PM -0700, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > smoking something I've run out of. Its all recorded. I'm sure the > archiving > and database groups in Ft. Meade will get a chuckle out of your > "the right to" idioms. All this stuff goes into some database slot. It will on

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread Major Variola (ret)
>> Absolutely, look at the threat model. You're not worried about someone >> breaking into your computer, you're worried about your ISP legally >> reading your email. Guaranteed, and encryption is bait. Use stego. >That's very true, however there can be operators you trust more than your >ISP,

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 02:47 PM 7/6/04 -0700, Hal Finney wrote: >> Messages in storage have much lower judicial protection than messages in >> transit. (This does not have much technical merit, in the current >> atmosphere of "damn the laws - there are terrorists around the corner", >> but can be seen as a nice little

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread Thomas Shaddack
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Hal Finney wrote: > > There are various email forwarding services, which are nothing more than a > > SMTP server with pairs of [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Right, mostly for use as disposable email addresses. I've used > spamgourmet to good effect, myself

Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread "Hal Finney"
Thomas Shaddack writes: > Reading some news about the email wiretapping by ISPs, and getting an > idea. > > There are various email forwarding services, which are nothing more than a > SMTP server with pairs of [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Right, mostly for use as disposable email

Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies

2004-07-06 Thread Thomas Shaddack
Reading some news about the email wiretapping by ISPs, and getting an idea. There are various email forwarding services, which are nothing more than a SMTP server with pairs of [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages in storage have much lower judicial protection than messages in tra