On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 11:43:52PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 11:13:55AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 11:22:51PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > > Given some options:
> > >
> > > 1. Don't distribute the firmware blob at all;
> > > 2. Provid
* Henning Makholm ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050402 18:10]:
> Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> > On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>
> >> >> > This does present certain logistical problems for produc
On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 11:13:55AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 11:22:51PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > Given some options:
> >
> > 1. Don't distribute the firmware blob at all;
> > 2. Provide a way to download the blob during install (while admitting
> >this won
On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 12:36:57PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Apr 03, Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:51:18PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > > | Installer images x, y, and z belong to the 'main' distribution of
> > > | Debian, and therefore do suppo
On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 11:22:51PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> Given some options:
>
> 1. Don't distribute the firmware blob at all;
> 2. Provide a way to download the blob during install (while admitting
>this won't work if the blob is the code for your ADSL modem);
> 3. Provide the blob o
On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 02:10:34PM -0400, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> On Sunday 03 April 2005 05:51 am, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Putting items from the non-free archive in the installer images does
> > just that. It is debatable whether the intention is the same, but by our
> > rulebook, this is not
On Sunday 03 April 2005 05:51 am, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Putting items from the non-free archive in the installer images does
> just that. It is debatable whether the intention is the same, but by our
> rulebook, this is not allowed.
Wait...so you're saying it's OK to put non-free stuff in the
Scripsit Mark Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 01:19:32AM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> Scripsit Mark Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > One example: with our current package management tools once you've got
>> > an apt source in your configuration the packages it provides will s
On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 11:51:15AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:52:58PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> > > On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> So what?
> >
> > > So it is a problem, because curren
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 06:15:04PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
> A free kernel can't support that hardware. It's a shame, but it's
> true.
Do you mean to say a free in
On Apr 03, Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:51:18PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > | Installer images x, y, and z belong to the 'main' distribution of
> > | Debian, and therefore do support various recent makes of hardware
> > | (link to list) that require
On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 01:19:32AM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Mark Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > One example: with our current package management tools once you've got
> > an apt source in your configuration the packages it provides will start
> > to show up in things like searches.
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:51:18PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> | Installer images x, y, and z belong to the 'main' distribution of
> | Debian, and therefore do support various recent makes of hardware
> | (link to list) that require non-free firmware that cannot go into
> | 'main'. If you need
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:52:58PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> > On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> So what?
>
> > So it is a problem, because currently it would not be allowed.
>
> Where does it say that such images are not
On Apr 03, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A free kernel can't support that hardware. It's a shame, but it's
This is a lie. Devices which need a firmware upload are supported by
totally free drivers.
--
ciao,
Marco
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Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thomas, please stop Cc:ing me on Debian mailing list threads. I read the
list.
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>>
>> This does present certain logistical problems for pr
Wouter van Heyst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The awkwad situation would be that d-i is part of Debian, and non-free
> isn't, so anything in non-free can not be part of the installer?
> But having a (non-free) firmware section with components of that in the
> installer is ok?
If it's done right,
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>
> This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
A free kernel can't support that hardware. It's a shame, but it's
true. If we want an alternative installer with
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The choice is not between free firmware and non-free firmware. The
> choice is between firmware on disk and firmware on chip. That's the
> reality of the situation. I'd prefer us to adopt policies based on what
> currently exists, rather than on what m
Scripsit Mark Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:57:09PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > I've suggested before that creating a separate section for firmware may
>> > be the best solution.
>> You have not described how that wou
Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Where does it say that such images are not allowed?
> At least current practice, and the build scripts not being able to do it.
The only thing that is necessary is to update the build scripts the
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:57:09PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I've suggested before that creating a separate section for firmware may
> > be the best solution.
> You have not described how that would differ from using 'non-free'.
One example:
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 04:26:28PM +0200, Wouter van Heyst wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 03:01:34PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > I'm not suggesting that we claim that firmware is Free, but putting it
> > in non-free is:
> > (a) going to result in an awkward situation for installation, and
On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where does it say that such images are not allowed?
At least current practice, and the build scripts not being able to do it.
--
ciao,
Marco
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Description: Digital signature
Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>>> This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
>> Which ones?
>
Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>> >> > This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
>> >> Which ones?
>> > The fact that they need t
Scripsit Wouter Verhelst
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 02:39:57PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > The installer images in question would of course need to be
> > labeled as containing non-free components, but that hardly
> > constitutes a "logistical problem" that is worth worrying about
> > for lon
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 02:39:57PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> > On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> It would be a better course of action to solve those problems than to
> >> deliberately mislabel non-free firmware as free.
>
On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
> >> > This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
> >> Which ones?
> > The fact that they need these firmwares to work.
> So what?
So it is a probl
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 03:01:34PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> non-free isn't part of Debian. Using loadable firmware is becoming
> increasingly common in hardware design. In the fairly near future, most
> modern hardware is likely to require it in order to allow installation.
>
> > It would
On Saturday 02 April 2005 08:31 am, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > It would be a better course of action to solve those problems than to
> > deliberately mislabel non-free firmware as free.
>
> So you would have no objections to distributing firmwares packaged in
> non-us [non-free?] on the debian install
Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>
>> This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
>
> Which ones?
non-free isn't part of Debian. Using loadable
Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
>> > This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
>> Which ones?
> The fact that they need these firmwar
On Apr 02, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
> > This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
> Which ones?
The fact that they need these firmwares to work.
> It would be a better course of action
Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> I'm ok with (1), provided we do it in the non-free archive.
> This does present certain logistical problems for producing installers.
Which ones?
It would be a better course of action to solve those problems than to
deliberately mislabel non-free
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> 1) Distribute the non-free firmware. Our users are happy.
>> 2) Don't distribute the non-free firmware. Our users either download the
>> non-free firmware from elsewhere (bad) or replace their hardwar
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> When people actually get around to a decent "Free firmware" campaign,
>> then I think we'll have a stronger argument for not distributing
>> firmware. At the moment, the non-freeness of firmware isn't
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Why? How does it benefit Debian if our users have to obtain firmware
>> from somewhere else to make their hardware work? How does it benefit
>> freedom if we imply that hardware with on-chip firmware is
Eduard Bloch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> As said, burn all hardware in your house. Now. Please. Then you have
> definitely defeated the evil non-freeness.
As I have said, I don't think non-free software is evil. I just think
it is not part of the Debian main archive.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, emai
#include
* Thomas Bushnell BSG [Thu, Mar 31 2005, 06:52:24PM]:
> Eduard Bloch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > That is bullshit/lies/cheating (pick one). It should be worded:
> >
> > "We are not willing to support his hardware just because we (at least
> > some of us) decided to demonstrate how
Eduard Bloch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> That is bullshit/lies/cheating (pick one). It should be worded:
>
> "We are not willing to support his hardware just because we (at least
> some of us) decided to demonstrate how can we can strike against the
> non-freeness of the hardware development ass
#include
* Thomas Bushnell BSG [Sat, Mar 26 2005, 11:49:37PM]:
> This is like saying that people will use star office whether it's DFSG
> free or not, so there is no reason to say "we won't distribute this
> until it's DFSG free". In fact, people can and do make things free.
>
> > Please explai
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 11:09:21AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
>> Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:50:46AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
>> >> What I meant is that if the firmware is truly burned i
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> > Why? How does it benefit Debian if our users have to obtain firmware
>> > from somewhere else to make their hardware work? How does it benefit
>> > freedom if we imply that hardware with on-chip firmware is preferable?
>>
>> The DFSG says that's the
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 11:09:21AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:50:46AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> >> What I meant is that if the firmware is truly burned into the chup,
> >> then I couldn't change it even
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 11:10:03AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >> Regardless, the point is what we distribute, not what is on my
> >> computer.
> >
> > Why? How does it benefit Debian if our users have to obtain firmware
> > from somewhere
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 1) Distribute the non-free firmware. Our users are happy.
> 2) Don't distribute the non-free firmware. Our users either download the
> non-free firmware from elsewhere (bad) or replace their hardware with
> parts that have the non-free firmware in flas
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 02:46:21PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Huh? I'm not saying I pretend it isn't there. Do I want to modify
> > the source code? No, because there's nothing I could do with it if I
> > could.
>
> I had to modify my
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> When people actually get around to a decent "Free firmware" campaign,
> then I think we'll have a stronger argument for not distributing
> firmware. At the moment, the non-freeness of firmware isn't something
> that seems to bother most people (even if
Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Regardless, the point is what we distribute, not what is on my
>> computer.
>
> Why? How does it benefit Debian if our users have to obtain firmware
> from somewhere else to make their hardware work? How does it benefit
> freedom if we imply that ha
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:50:46AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
>> What I meant is that if the firmware is truly burned into the chup,
>> then I couldn't change it even if I had the source code. It was wrong
>> to say that I don't *want* to modify
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Huh? I'm not saying I pretend it isn't there. Do I want to modify
> the source code? No, because there's nothing I could do with it if I
> could.
I had to modify my BIOS in order to get my laptop to work with my
wireless card. This would have b
Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What I meant is that if the firmware is truly burned into the chup,
> then I couldn't change it even if I had the source code. It was wrong
> to say that I don't *want* to modify it, but rather, that I *cannot*
> do so.
This is, by and large, not
Op do, 31-03-2005 te 09:07 +0200, schreef Tollef Fog Heen:
> * Thomas Bushnell BSG
>
> | Huh? I'm not saying I pretend it isn't there. Do I want to modify
> | the source code? No, because there's nothing I could do with it if I
> | could.
>
> Sure there is, like, reprogramming the image show
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:50:46AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> What I meant is that if the firmware is truly burned into the chup,
> then I couldn't change it even if I had the source code. It was wrong
> to say that I don't *want* to modify it, but rather, that I *cannot*
> do so.
That's
Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> * Thomas Bushnell BSG
>
> | Huh? I'm not saying I pretend it isn't there. Do I want to modify
> | the source code? No, because there's nothing I could do with it if I
> | could.
>
> Sure there is, like, reprogramming the image shown when your comp
* Thomas Bushnell BSG
| Huh? I'm not saying I pretend it isn't there. Do I want to modify
| the source code? No, because there's nothing I could do with it if I
| could.
Sure there is, like, reprogramming the image shown when your computer
boots.
--
Tollef Fog Heen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
> (I already asked you to please stop Cc'ing me on every reply, what else
> do I need to do?)
Fix Debian's gnus. :)
> On Mar 27, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > We are unable to fix security bugs in hardware with non-modifiable
> >
(I already asked you to please stop Cc'ing me on every reply, what else
do I need to do?)
On Mar 27, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > We are unable to fix security bugs in hardware with non-modifiable
> > firmware and modifiable but permanently stored firmware too. Should we
> >
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
> > We should tell users: we are unable to support this hardware, because
> > we don't have the source. Among other things, we are unable to fix
> > security bugs in it.
> We are unable to fix security bugs in hardware with non-modifiable
> firmware and mo
On Mar 27, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Maybe. But why won't you refute the arguments that are there?
> I don't need to. What we are lacking is not those arguments, but the
> key missing pieces: what freedoms do you want to insist on (as opposed
> to the DFSG)? and why shoul
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Sure there is. Your motherboard FLASH can almost certainly be
> reprogrammed in the field, as can the FLASH in your video card, hard
> disk, and broadband modem. Probably not your monitor, admittedly.
> Why is it OK for those vendors not to provide you
On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 12:00:20AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > You don't have that freedom now. Your PC is full of firmware that you
> > don't have source to, probably can't change and probably can't recompile
> > anyway. It's your motherboard
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 11:44:17PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> > One reason for the DFSG's modifiability and source requirements is to
> > preserve our ability to fix things. I see no reason why we shouldn't
> > insist on that for firmware just
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 11:44:17PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> One reason for the DFSG's modifiability and source requirements is to
> preserve our ability to fix things. I see no reason why we shouldn't
> insist on that for firmware just as we do for openoffice.org.
You don't have that f
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > And nothing there explains why firmware should have less freedom,
> > except for the claim that without this we won't be able to distribute
> > the drivers (and you say how important those drivers are).
>
> Maybe. But why won't you refute the argumen
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 10:37:57AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
> > Anyway, you can find a very old and partial selection of my arguments
> > at http://blog.bofh.it/id_33 .
>
> Nothing there explains what the reduced level of freedom would be:
> what
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Frankly I can't spot the flaw in this approach. In general we want to
> distribute all useful bitstreams (programs, documentation and firmware)
> in Debian. However we are forced to disqualify the ones that don't have
> adequate freedoms. It's a subtra
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 09:25:00AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 05:37:02PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > > Do you have any arguments for this that do *not* basically reason
> > > backwards from "we want this stuff to
On Mar 27, David Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We have main for those things which are DFSG-free and non-free for
> the things redistributable but not-DFSG-free and there are people who rely on
> this distinction.
So we must have been screwing them really bad until now...
Where are their
On Saturday 26 March 2005 20:25, David Nusinow wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 03:59:49PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > Scripsit Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 05:37:02PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > >> Do you have any arguments for this that do *not*
On Friday 25 March 2005 02:51 pm, Adam McKenna wrote:
> No matter how you feel about the term "editorial changes", it seems to me
> that if these changes were really so bad, and the majority of the project
> is now against them, they should be easy enough to roll back.
>
> All we need is another GR
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 03:59:49PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 05:37:02PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
>
> >> Do you have any arguments for this that do *not* basically reason
> >> backwards from "we want this stuff to be
On Mar 26, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You made many arguments, but that doesn't mean they answered the two
> specific questions: what freedoms, exactly, and why reduced ones for
> this particular class of software?
Since I answered both questions I think it's obvious that we
Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The only one who was aware that the outcome would change the release
> manager's position wrt. freedom bugs in sarge seems to have been the
> release manager himself. But that does not change the fact that it was
> common knowledge that the amendment w
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
> On Mar 26, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > You kept saying nothing more than "we don't care about modifying them
> > because nobody will ever want to", which is, well, simply false.
> Yet another strawman. What is false is your desc
Scripsit Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> * Henning Makholm ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050326 00:55]:
>> Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
>> > And one of the reasons for which licensing for documentation has not
>> > been discussed is that most people were not aware of the scope of the
>> >
Scripsit Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 05:37:02PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> Do you have any arguments for this that do *not* basically reason
>> backwards from "we want this stuff to be in main, freedoms or not"?
> Well, I would start with "we want this stuff
On Mar 26, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You kept saying nothing more than "we don't care about modifying them
> because nobody will ever want to", which is, well, simply false.
Yet another strawman. What is false is your description of my arguments,
which were much more complex
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
> On Mar 26, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Actually, while there was lots of discussion, there wasn't actually a
> > proposal explaining what the reduced level of freedom would be and why
> > firmware needs less freedom.
> Anyway, y
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri) writes:
> On Mar 26, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Actually, while there was lots of discussion, there wasn't actually a
> > proposal explaining what the reduced level of freedom would be and why
> > firmware needs less freedom.
> I explain
On Mar 26, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, while there was lots of discussion, there wasn't actually a
> proposal explaining what the reduced level of freedom would be and why
> firmware needs less freedom.
I explained this multiple times and I believe that I was not the
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 05:37:02PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > Scripsit Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > Please don't rehash old arguments. Nobody has argued that we should put
> > > non-free packages into main, but we don't agree on
* Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [050326 08:18]:
> > > And one of the reasons for which licensing for documentation has not
> > > been discussed is that most people were not aware of the scope of the
> > > "editorial" changes, so there was no reason to discuss anything.
>
> > You can keep repe
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 05:37:02PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Please don't rehash old arguments. Nobody has argued that we should put
> > non-free packages into main, but we don't agree on what is free and what
> > isn't for all types of packa
* Henning Makholm ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050326 00:55]:
> Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> > And one of the reasons for which licensing for documentation has not
> > been discussed is that most people were not aware of the scope of the
> > "editorial" changes, so there was no reason to d
On Mar 25, Adam McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No matter how you feel about the term "editorial changes", it seems to me
> that if these changes were really so bad, and the majority of the project is
> now against them, they should be easy enough to roll back.
Adam, meet Apathy.
Apathy, meet
Scripsit [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marco d'Itri)
> And one of the reasons for which licensing for documentation has not
> been discussed is that most people were not aware of the scope of the
> "editorial" changes, so there was no reason to discuss anything.
You can keep repeating that lie from now to e
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 12:48:14PM -0600, Adam Majer wrote:
> Andreas Barth wrote:
>
> > Actually, I believe the Debian project as whole _wants_ to getting
> >
> >software released. That was at least the decision in all GRs where
> >people didn't hide the intents ("editorial changes").
>
> Indeed.
Le jeudi 24 mars 2005 à 11:13 +1100, Matthew Palmer a écrit :
> "Some would say that this has already happened". Not a fork, per se,
> but Ubuntu's licencing policy (and the general level-headedness of the
> people I know who are deeply involved in it) suggests that it may be
> the refuge you seek
On Mar 24, Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That may be true for documentation but certainly not for firmware, which
> has been discussed to death. (Not with a satisfactory outcome, imho.)
And one of the reasons for which licensing for documentation has not
been discussed is that most p
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 10:28:36AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Please don't rehash old arguments. Nobody has argued that we should put
> > non-free packages into main, but we don't agree on what is free and what
> > isn't for all types of pa
Scripsit Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Please don't rehash old arguments. Nobody has argued that we should put
> non-free packages into main, but we don't agree on what is free and what
> isn't for all types of packages.
Do you have any arguments for this that do *not* basically reason
bac
Andreas Barth wrote:
> Actually, I believe the Debian project as whole _wants_ to getting
>
>software released. That was at least the decision in all GRs where
>people didn't hide the intents ("editorial changes").
>
>
Indeed. These types of changes are akin to changing a country's
constitution
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Please don't rehash old arguments. Nobody has argued that we should put
> non-free packages into main, but we don't agree on what is free and what
> isn't for all types of packages.
Actually, nobody from the "more lenient" side has given a description
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 10:59:37AM +0100, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> * Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [050322 22:39]:
> > I'm also not satisfied with the non-productiveness of the removal of
> > useful documentation. I'm also ashamed that some hardware doesn't work
> > out of the box on Debian
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:50:16 +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> Is it as easy to participate with Ubuntu as it is with Debian?
In some respects it is easier. For one thing you can become a maintainer
there without going through an NM ordeal.
--
Thomas Hood
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTE
* Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [050322 22:39]:
> I'm also not satisfied with the non-productiveness of the removal of
> useful documentation. I'm also ashamed that some hardware doesn't work
> out of the box on Debian because we decided that firmware are software
> and thus should meet DFSG.
* Russell Coker ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050324 00:35]:
> On Thursday 24 March 2005 03:40, Theodore Ts'o <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If the free software fanatics succeed in kicking non-free from being
> > supported by Debian assets, such that the FSF documentation were no
> > longer available, I'd
On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 08:49:39AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:13:05 +1100, Matthew Palmer
> >"Some would say that this has already happened". Not a fork, per se, but
> >Ubuntu's licencing policy (and the general level-headedness of the people I
> >know who are deeply involve
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