Am Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 11:06:54AM + schrieb Scott Kitterman:
> On February 23, 2022 8:50:58 AM UTC, Andreas Tille wrote:
> >Am Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 12:06:17AM -0500 schrieb Scott Kitterman:
> >>
> >> Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution.
> >> I
> >>
On February 23, 2022 8:50:58 AM UTC, Andreas Tille wrote:
>Am Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 12:06:17AM -0500 schrieb Scott Kitterman:
>>
>> Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution.
>> I
>> think every non-government job I've had had a discipline process that went:
Am Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 12:06:17AM -0500 schrieb Scott Kitterman:
>
> Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution. I
> think every non-government job I've had had a discipline process that went:
>
> 1. Verbal warning.
> 2. Written warning.
> 3. You're fired.
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 11:59:21PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
[...]
> And, as I already told too in other mail threads that you are quite
> efficient at interpreting what people wrote to you the worst possible
> way [...]
> Whether it's intentional or not, I'm still wondering, although
Felix Lechner wrote on 21/02/2022 at 19:10:08+0100:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 10:06 AM Russ Allbery wrote:
>>
>> Right now, you are doing exactly what Enrico described: creating
>> conflict where there was none.
>
> I think you are blowing it out of proportion. There is no conflict but
On Monday, February 21, 2022 4:09:37 PM EST Sam Hartman wrote:
> > "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
> Scott> OTOH, I think a DAM warning for a single instance of someone
> Scott> losing their temper and calling someone an unfortunate name
> Scott> is like ringing a doorbell with
> "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
Scott> OTOH, I think a DAM warning for a single instance of someone
Scott> losing their temper and calling someone an unfortunate name
Scott> is like ringing a doorbell with a sledge hammer.
I strongly agree. And I understand why it is that
On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:03 PM Scott Kitterman wrote:
>
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 5:24:47 PM EST Sam Hartman wrote:
> > > "Felix" == Felix Lechner writes:
> > In the interest of full disclosure, I no longer have any affiliation
> > with DAM.
> >
> > Felix> With regard to
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 01:08:42PM -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> OTOH, I think a DAM warning for a single instance of someone losing their
> temper and calling someone an unfortunate name is like ringing a doorbell
> with
> a sledge hammer. If that's now the standard for threatening removal,
On Monday, February 21, 2022 1:05:04 PM EST Russ Allbery wrote:
> Felix Lechner writes:
> > On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 9:38 AM Enrico Zini wrote:
> >> Then you need to start taking responsibility for creating conflict when
> >> there was none, which is sadly something I see as a recurring pattern
>
Felix Lechner writes:
> Your statement is the opposite of what I felt. In fact, I asked for the
> circumstances to be published on debian-private. It was calming to me,
> so your interpretation is not correct.
Thank you for the correction! I'm sorry for having misunderstood you.
You'd made
Hi,
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 10:06 AM Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Right now, you are doing exactly what Enrico described: creating
> conflict where there was none.
I think you are blowing it out of proportion. There is no conflict but
a diversity of opinion.
Kind regards
Felix Lechner
On Monday, February 21, 2022 12:33:55 PM EST Russ Allbery wrote:
> Scott Kitterman writes:
> > The reason it feels like a threat of expulsion is precisely because it
> > is a threat of expulsion. The minimal possible solution to people
> > feeling threatened would be to not threaten them. That
Felix Lechner writes:
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 9:38 AM Enrico Zini wrote:
>> Then you need to start taking responsibility for creating conflict when
>> there was none, which is sadly something I see as a recurring pattern
>> in the way you participate in Debian interactions.
>> Is this
Hi,
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 9:06 AM Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> That is precisely the opposite of what I meant.
Thank you for clarifying.
> What I'm trying to express is that the warning *entirely reasonably* made
> you feel shamed and attacked for a number of reasons, including the fact
> that it
Marc Haber writes:
> But please don't forget that a person vanishing from a heated discussion
> just in a whim creates the feeling of victory in the orht discussion
> parties.
> And I KNOW what I would do as participant of a heated discussion after
> receiving a DAM warning.
I think the way
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 08:51:51AM -0800, Felix Lechner wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 8:29 AM Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >
> > This is getting worrying. Russ expressed sympathy about the bad
> > effects that warnings could have on people, and you've somehow
> > misinterpreted that as a direct
Hi,
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 9:38 AM Enrico Zini wrote:
>
> Then you need to start taking responsibility for creating conflict when
> there was none, which is sadly something I see as a recurring pattern in
> the way you participate in Debian interactions.
>
> Is this something you'd acknowledge
Scott Kitterman writes:
> The reason it feels like a threat of expulsion is precisely because it
> is a threat of expulsion. The minimal possible solution to people
> feeling threatened would be to not threaten them. That may not be
> enough, but that would be a first step. Focusing on the
On February 21, 2022 5:02:37 PM UTC, Russ Allbery wrote:
>Felix Lechner writes:
>> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Russ Allbery wrote:
>
>>> Or, let me put this another way: one of the fears that I've seen
>>> expressed around warnings is that it's a permanent record sort of
>>> thing, or
Felix Lechner writes:
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Or, let me put this another way: one of the fears that I've seen
>> expressed around warnings is that it's a permanent record sort of
>> thing, or it starts a file on someone, or otherwise creates a
>> presumption
Hi,
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 8:29 AM Steve McIntyre wrote:
>
> This is getting worrying. Russ expressed sympathy about the bad
> effects that warnings could have on people, and you've somehow
> misinterpreted that as a direct attack on you.
Thank you, but despite your condescending tone I retain
Felix...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 07:25:46AM -0800, Felix Lechner wrote:
>On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Russ Allbery wrote:
>>
>> Or, let me put this another way: one of the fears that I've seen expressed
>> around warnings is that it's a permanent record sort of thing, or it
>> starts a file
On 2022/02/21 16:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:
On February 21, 2022 12:56:43 PM UTC, Jonathan Carter wrote:
On 2022/02/21 14:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:
I didn't intend to communicate that it was a final step. I think we agree. A
DAM warning, as you said, indicates someone is on a path to
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Or, let me put this another way: one of the fears that I've seen expressed
> around warnings is that it's a permanent record sort of thing, or it
> starts a file on someone, or otherwise creates a presumption of future bad
> behavior.
On February 21, 2022 12:56:43 PM UTC, Jonathan Carter wrote:
>On 2022/02/21 14:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I didn't intend to communicate that it was a final step. I think we agree.
>> A DAM warning, as you said, indicates someone is on a path to suspension or
>> expulsion. I don't have
On 2022/02/21 14:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:
I didn't intend to communicate that it was a final step. I think we agree. A
DAM warning, as you said, indicates someone is on a path to suspension or
expulsion. I don't have a problem with this. What bothers me is trying to
pretend it's
On February 21, 2022 11:33:07 AM UTC, Jonathan Carter wrote:
>On 2022/02/21 07:06, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution.
>
>I don't believe that's quite accurate, a DAM warning isn't necessarily
>meant as a final warning, it's a
On 2022/02/21 07:06, Scott Kitterman wrote:
Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution.
I don't believe that's quite accurate, a DAM warning isn't necessarily
meant as a final warning, it's a larger prod for an individual to course
correct their behaviour.
If
On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 09:18:15AM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Russ Allbery wrote on 21/02/2022 at 07:30:48+0100:
> > BTW, also on that front, I think that announcing DAM warnings to the
> > project is a serious mistake. I understand the thought process that went
> > into that decision,
Sam Hartman wrote:
> I think phrasing this in terms of justice and rights for keeping
governments accountable is likely to get a knee-jerk reaction from a
number of people who do not want to think of things that.
> It's fairly clear to a number of us that maintaining standards of a
private
Russ Allbery wrote:
> We need a careful and slow process for kicking someone out of the project
because that's a big deal. Having a careful and slow process for issuing
a warning is faintly absurd,
I see your point and to some extent I agree -- but if repeated
warnings then become grounds for
Russ Allbery wrote on 21/02/2022 at 07:30:48+0100:
> BTW, also on that front, I think that announcing DAM warnings to the
> project is a serious mistake. I understand the thought process that went
> into that decision, but I really don't agree with it. The effect is to
> make someone feel
Scott Kitterman writes:
> I think that makes sense, but I think it's really pretty much the same
> thing. The "perceived authority" that means people treat feedback from
> DAM differently is the authority to suspend or expell. Ultimately and
> unavoidably, a DAM warning comes with an
On February 21, 2022 5:32:35 AM UTC, Russ Allbery wrote:
>Scott Kitterman writes:
>> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 10:13:03 PM EST Russ Allbery wrote:
>
>>> I guess the other possibility is that people really want warnings to be
>>> way more serious than any meaning I personally would ascribe
Scott Kitterman writes:
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 10:13:03 PM EST Russ Allbery wrote:
>> I guess the other possibility is that people really want warnings to be
>> way more serious than any meaning I personally would ascribe to the
>> word "warning" and are thinking of them as formal
On Sunday, February 20, 2022 10:13:03 PM EST Russ Allbery wrote:
> Sam Hartman writes:
> > Figuring out how to accomplish requesting a statement is a little
> > tricky, but I think it is worth the effort. DAM takes membership
> > actions (including warnings) by consensus. It's fairly difficult
On Sunday, February 20, 2022 5:24:47 PM EST Sam Hartman wrote:
> > "Felix" == Felix Lechner writes:
> In the interest of full disclosure, I no longer have any affiliation
> with DAM.
>
> Felix> With regard to disciplinary proceedings, however, Debian has
> Felix> a long way to go in
> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
Russ> Sam Hartman writes:
Russ> I dunno, I realize I may be being too cavalier here, but see
Russ> the point above about making more decisions, faster, and
Russ> accepting a few mistakes. If we end up with a rash of bogus
Russ> warnings,
Sam Hartman writes:
> Figuring out how to accomplish requesting a statement is a little
> tricky, but I think it is worth the effort. DAM takes membership
> actions (including warnings) by consensus. It's fairly difficult to get
> all the members of DAM together.
> I don't think it would work
> "Felix" == Felix Lechner writes:
Felix> Alas, I'll venture that the folks whose opinions you consider
Felix> superior have never been punished.
The word punished implies a framing of the problem I personally reject.
But if for example you'd consider being banned from the BTS a
Felix Lechner wrote on 20/02/2022 at 23:42:31+0100:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:25 PM Sam Hartman wrote:
>>
>> A number of people over the years have talked about embodying some of
>> the processes and protections of a trial in community management actions
>> in Debian. That has
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:25 PM Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> A number of people over the years have talked about embodying some of
> the processes and protections of a trial in community management actions
> in Debian. That has included ideas like having the project as a whole
> decide/affirm the
> "Felix" == Felix Lechner writes:
In the interest of full disclosure, I no longer have any affiliation
with DAM.
Felix> With regard to disciplinary proceedings, however, Debian has
Felix> a long way to go in implementing basic precepts of
Felix> justice. For example, it would
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