On Mon 21 Sep 2020 at 08:45:02 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > > Best to keep it as simple as possible.
> >
> > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.
>
> Well, having GNOME installed
On Mon 21 Sep 2020 at 07:30:20 (-0400), Kenneth Parker wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:45 AM Andrei POPESCU >
> wrote:
> > On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote:
> > > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > >
> > > > Best to keep it as simple as possible.
> > >
> > > K
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:45 AM Andrei POPESCU
wrote:
> On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > > Best to keep it as simple as possible.
> >
> > Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.
>
> Well, having GNOME installed after un-c
On Sb, 19 sep 20, 20:41:05, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> > Best to keep it as simple as possible.
>
> Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.
Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite
of intuitive in my opinion, so fo
On 9/19/2020 6:12 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users
coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of
different options here.
Most Windows users are comple
On Sat 19 Sep 2020 at 14:12:08 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first
> > option
> > (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
> > optio
On Vi, 18 sep 20, 11:00:11, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first
> option
> (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
> option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be
rhkra...@gmail.com writes:
> On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote:
>> On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
>> > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
>>
On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote:
> On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
> > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
> > be GNOME, which is the thing tha
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > The function of the menu is crystal clear.
> >
> > Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.
> >
> > Unticking the option gets the user nothing.
> >
> > Sta
Thank you!
On Friday, September 18, 2020 08:12:34 AM Brian wrote:
> It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :
On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 04:36:08 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while
> > > taking
> > > a break from yardwork):
> > >
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be
> > > installed
> > > if the user
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> The function of the menu is crystal clear.
>
> Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.
>
> Unticking the option gets the user nothing.
>
> Start with that.
Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop"
Marco Möller writes:
> On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote:
>> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
>>
>>> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. r
On 09/17/2020 03:36 PM, Marco Möller wrote:
On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote:
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1.
On 09/17/2020 04:44 PM, Brian wrote:
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote:
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wrigh
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > > >
> > >
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 22:36:31 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> >
> > > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Deb
On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote:
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote:
> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> > On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > >
> > > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
> > >
On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
> > 1. remove the check-box.
> > 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desk
On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.
YES, Exactly this
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 03:54:57 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> > > Brian writes:
> > > > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Debian des
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 08:23:50 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
> > 1. remove the check-box.
A user now cannot install task-desktop alone. In other words,
On 09/16/2020 07:23 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 04:54:57 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
> 1. remove the check-box.
> 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
> 3. add a default check by GNOME.
+1 -- that seems much clearer t
On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
Brian writes:
On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gn
On Ma, 15 sep 20, 18:50:57, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> >
> > Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
> > presented to the user?
>
> No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
David Wright composed on 2020-09-15 18:50 (UTC-0500):
> But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
> debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
> I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
> one time I ran an already insta
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 (+0200), Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> Brian writes:
> > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >
> > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
> > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
>
On Tue 15 Sep 2020 at 21:23:20 +0200, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> Brian writes:
>
> > On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >
> > The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
> > recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
Brian writes:
> On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>
> The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
> recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
> listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
> does k
On Mon 14 Sep 2020 at 08:12:50 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 07:19:50PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case
> > the way it is makes sense.
>
> My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 07:19:50PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case
> the way it is makes sense.
My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't
actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws u
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 13:47:04 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> > On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote:
> > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote:
> > > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote:
> >
> > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 2
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 19:19:50 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06,
On 2020-09-12 18:42, Brian wrote:
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote:
On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> > >
> > > I've also been bitten by this. I
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 11:49:18 +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > > On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue,
On 2020-09-12 10:53, Brian wrote:
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
>
> I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
> are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box
On Sat 12 Sep 2020 at 12:33:56 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
> >
> > I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
> > are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
> > follows? --
> >
>
On Vi, 11 sep 20, 22:47:06, Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY wrote:
>
> I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
> are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
> follows? --
>
> Debian desktop environments:
> [ ] ... GNOME (default)
> [ ] ... Xf
Marco Möller writes:
> On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote:
>> So what would your version of an installer do when presented with:
>>
>>│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
>>│ [ ] ... GNOME │
>>│ [ ] ... Xfce │
>>│ [ ] ... KDE
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 22:40, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/10/2020 01:11 AM, David wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> The manpage
> >> [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
> >> multiple references to "the aptitude reference manu
On 2020-09-09 14:27, Richard Owlett wrote:
My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
I suppose if you were *that* concerned you could install a basi
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:44:26PM +0100, Brian wrote:
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 14:15:49 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the
software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what
gets installed when using it, you ar
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 19:34:24 (+0200), Marco Möller wrote:
> On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
[…]
> > > > You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
> > > >
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 14:15:49 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:34:24PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
> > I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
> > first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant
> > with the second line
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 07:34:24PM +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is
redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the
second line because no wanting
On 09/10/2020 12:34 PM, Marco Möller wrote:
I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant
with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line
because no wanting GNOME, but does
On 10.09.20 18:43, David Wright wrote:
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09
On Thu 10 Sep 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
> > On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > > > On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:1
On Jo, 10 sep 20, 07:40:19, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
> I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/
> I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html] which
> appears to be an HTML version of the "readme".
>
> I find HTML easier to navigate than text files
On 09/10/2020 02:28 AM, Marco Möller wrote:
On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{ag
On 09/10/2020 01:11 AM, David wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote:
The manpage
[https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
Where do I find it?
Under the Help menu whe
On 10/09/20 6:11 pm, David wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>> The manpage
>> [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
>> multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
>
>> Where do I find it?
>
> Under the
On 10.09.20 08:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends
On 09/09/2020 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maint
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 15:50, Richard Owlett wrote:
> The manpage
> [https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
> multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
> Where do I find it?
Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, o
On 09/09/2020 12:06 PM, Brian wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 09:35:14 -0500, David Wright wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
I run apt-get before closing the installer?
As I've had no nee
On 09/09/2020 10:30 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
On 09/09/2020 09:58 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 09:35:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “
On 09/09/2020 09:58 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 09:35:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “standard”? [2]
Use dpkg-query with $Packa
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 19:56:05 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >
> > 1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> > {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
>
> If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 09:35:14 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>
> > 3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
> >I run apt-get before closing the installer?
>
> As I've had no need or desire to do that, I h
On Mi, 09 sep 20, 08:27:13, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
> 1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
> {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is ofte
On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 09:35:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
> >priority “standard”? [2]
>
> Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standar
On Wed 09 Sep 2020 at 08:27:13 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
> functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
> large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.
>
> That works very we
Standard advice from me: use the expert install (available under "Advanced
options", I think, from the standard netinst / DVD .iso image. Uncheck all
except standard install (and perhaps SSH server) - no X, no desktop
environment. That gives you a bare, text mode install with < 400 packages
in tota
IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.
That works very well *most* of the time.
But when it doesn't, it is VERY annoying ;{
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