On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 10:05, Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland.
> >
> > No, it's not, actually. Holland is only part of the Netherlands.
>
>well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko
> (slovak spelling for hol
On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 03:29:34PM +, Pedro M. (Morphix User) wrote:
> John Hasler escribió:
>
> >
> >
> >>OK, then I vote that we replace "United States of America" with
> >>"America". It's also universally understood.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >"America" is ambiguous. "United States of America"
John Hasler escribió:
OK, then I vote that we replace "United States of America" with
"America". It's also universally understood.
"America" is ambiguous. "United States of America" is not a
controversial political statement at variance with common usage.
I agree. America is more than
Julian Mehnle wrote:
Erik Steffl wrote:
That's why I think it is better to use standard names, even though some
of them might be objectionable from certain perspectives.
But that's the point! The name is objectionable from a technical
perspective: it's unnecessarily long and bulky. We are not
Erik Steffl wrote:
> Joey Hess wrote:
> >Erik Steffl wrote:
> >
> >> well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko
> >>(slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in
> >>netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to
> >>call that countr
Erik Steffl wrote:
> That's why I think it is better to use standard names, even though some
> of them might be objectionable from certain perspectives.
But that's the point! The name is objectionable from a technical
perspective: it's unnecessarily long and bulky. We are not writing
"Germany (F
John Hasler wrote:
Erik Steffl writes:
so you're going to call germany deutschland?
Is Deutschland being labeled "Germany" to appease a powerful neighbor
despite the objections of the inhabitants?
I thought we're not into political disputes.
that could make the list of countries quite incompr
Joey Hess wrote:
Erik Steffl wrote:
well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko
(slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in
netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to
call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called n
* Claus Färber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [040407 16:14]:
> Other "strange" entries:
>
> HOLY SEE (VATICAN CITY STATE);VA=> VATICAN
>
> The country is "Vatican City State". The "Holy See" is the Pope.
A "see" is the seat within a bishop's diocese where his cathedral is
located. A see is n
Miles Bader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb/wrote:
> Anthony Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> certainly it is NOT a bug. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
> So how do you justify the brokenness of the Taiwan entry -- which unlike
> every other entry, doesn't properly yield the name of the c
Herbert Xu wrote:
Katipo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But it doesn't stop there. After the Han,
which is the group that make up approx. 46% of the population,
Han makes up 92% of the population, not 46%.
Yes, you're quite right.
My source was quite dated, and must have been inaccurate eve
Katipo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> But it doesn't stop there. After the Han,
> which is the group that make up approx. 46% of the population,
Han makes up 92% of the population, not 46%.
--
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <[EMAIL PROTECTED
* Miles Bader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040407 03:25]:
> Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is
> > > something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly
> > > start calling itself [in English] `Province
Miles Bader wrote:
On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 05:42:00PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
Furthermore, doesn't Hong Kong use Traditional Chinese? In this case,
the issue of writing style is rather independent of the status of
Taiwan.
Yup. I wonder whether there's any pressure on them these days
On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 18:58, Erik Steffl wrote:
> Andreas Barth wrote:
> > * John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040405 04:55]:
> >
> >>Anthony Johnson writes:
> >>
> >>>Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side
> >>>when you live in China mainland?
> >
> >
> >>The peop
Kirk Strauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Agreed. As anyone _can_ change any code in Debian, _we_ should stick as a
> > default to the names that the people who it applies to like, and not to
> > names who others have fixed on them.
>
> Excellent! Now, how's that Unicode installer coming alon
Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is
> > something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly
> > start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then
> > the argument is over I gu
Erik Steffl writes:
> so you're going to call germany deutschland?
Is Deutschland being labeled "Germany" to appease a powerful neighbor
despite the objections of the inhabitants?
> that could make the list of countries quite incomprehensible for general
> public (different alphabets and all that
Erik Steffl wrote:
> well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko
> (slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people in
> netherlands but that's how it is. so for me it makes perfect sense to
> call that country holland, I didn't even knew it's called netherland
Bas Zoetekouw wrote:
Hi Erik!
You wrote:
and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland.
No, it's not, actually. Holland is only part of the Netherlands.
well, yes. but: in slovakia the name for the country is holandsko
(slovak spelling for holland). maybe it insults some people i
Andreas Barth wrote:
* John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040405 04:55]:
Anthony Johnson writes:
Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side
when you live in China mainland?
The people who live on the island call it Taiwan. What's wrong with using
the name they choose?
On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 05:42:00PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Furthermore, doesn't Hong Kong use Traditional Chinese? In this case,
> the issue of writing style is rather independent of the status of
> Taiwan.
Yup. I wonder whether there's any pressure on them these days to change,
since ...
At 2004-04-06T20:37:43Z, Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Agreed. As anyone _can_ change any code in Debian, _we_ should stick as a
> default to the names that the people who it applies to like, and not to
> names who others have fixed on them.
Excellent! Now, how's that Unicode insta
* Branden Robinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040406 07:40]:
> If some governmental interest needs to bowdlerize our distribution to
> satisify their political sensibilities, they can go ahead.
Agreed. As anyone _can_ change any code in Debian, _we_ should stick
as a default to the names that the people
* John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040405 04:55]:
> Anthony Johnson writes:
> > Yes, you love living in China Taiwan. Will you stand on the other side
> > when you live in China mainland?
> The people who live on the island call it Taiwan. What's wrong with using
> the name they choose?
Nothing.
* Miles Bader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040406 07:25]:
> These names are[3] those chosen by the respective countries -- _that_ is
> something I thing ought to be respected (so if Taiwan were to suddenly
> start calling itself [in English] `Province of China Taiwan', well then
> the argument is over I gu
Miles Bader wrote:
> I'm not sure what this has to do with the original question, but the
> simplified chinese characters used in the PRC can look _very_ different
> from the traditional forms used in Taiwan (anyway, it's not accurate to
> say the difference is `close to bold-versus-normal').
It'
Hi Erik!
You wrote:
> and while we're at it - netherlands is really holland.
No, it's not, actually. Holland is only part of the Netherlands.
--
Kind regards,
++
| Bas Zoetekouw | GPG key: 0644fab7
Branden Robinson wrote:
> We have nothing to gain by taking sides political conflicts like this.
> [...]
> If some governmental interest needs to bowdlerize our distribution to
> satisify their political sensibilities, they can go ahead.
IMO, this is really not about taking sides, and I think it's
Erik Steffl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > It's only Taiwan that's weird, because (1) the resulting long name
> > isn't a real name at all, but the rather awkward construct:
> > "Province of China Taiwan" and obviously (2) that isn't the
> > self-declared name of the country[2].
>
>there's al
Miles Bader wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Claus Färber) writes:
BTW, there are a lot of other names from ISO 3166 that IMO should be
changed for everyday use:
Short name contains unnecessary parts from the full official name
(probably for political hyper-correctness):
IRAN, ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF;I
Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm just a naïve gaijin[1], but I'm not sure you're right about that.
> Written zh_CN and zh_TW look very similar to Western eyes. I've seen a
> comparison of the two in some Sun documentation, and they really just
> looked like the exact same glyphs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Claus Färber) writes:
> BTW, there are a lot of other names from ISO 3166 that IMO should be
> changed for everyday use:
>
> Short name contains unnecessary parts from the full official name
> (probably for political hyper-correctness):
>
> IRAN, ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF;IR
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 07:28:49PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> Given what I understand of the politics and history of Taiwan/China, I
> think it is unlikely that the two use the same language *in every detail*.
> Particularly, I doubt that their usage of technical language jargon is the
> same.
Anthony Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> certainly it is NOT a bug. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
So how do you justify the brokenness of the Taiwan entry -- which unlike
every other entry, doesn't properly yield the name of the country?
Can you?
[BTW, you included my entire messag
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 07:28:49PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> We have both. We are inclusive. Inclusive is PC. PC is good.
No, PC is a box of kludges that has managed to dominate the market by
being inclusive. The original Mac was much saner and had a nicer
processor but was too exclusive, so i
I'm not even going to dignify this with a reply other than
Who cares? Nobody on the debian list, while reading the debian list.
They might care when reading another list, but this offtopic crap.
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 05:49:40PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Joe Rhett writes:
> > I sug
Joe Rhett writes:
> I suggest dropping Taiwan from the list entirely until they make up their
> minds.
What makes you think the Taiwanese have not made up their minds?
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
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To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w
Yea, verily, I say unto you that on this date (Sun, 04 Apr 2004 22:54:01
-0500) dircha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> didst appear within my Magick Viewing
Screen and, being somewhat pleasantly supplicatory, did polemicize
thusly:
> I protest. It is not perfectly reasonable. This is not a political
> issue
At 2004-04-05T22:05:27Z, Katipo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm afraid you have confused something. Taiwan, R.O.C., which stands for
> Republic of China, [...] 'Province of China' on the other hand is a
> totally different proposition.
You're right. I thought that "ROC" was the label that *Ch
On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 06:05:27AM +0800, Katipo wrote:
> 'Province of China' on the other hand is a totally different proposition.
> It is the imposition of a political stamp applied by mainland China,
> a completely separate nation, who insist that Taiwan is part of greater
> China.
>
> By ass
Kirk Strauser wrote:
At 2004-04-05T07:21:42Z, Katipo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
To be placed in the position of taking a political stance, without prior
knowledge and consultation is odious.
Let's try this from the other direction. ISO says that Taiwan's name is
really "Taiwain, R.O.C."
I wrote:
> "Taiwan, Republic of China" is a political statement that you don't
> recognize China's claim.
Kirk Strauser writes:
> I don't follow the Taiwan situation that closely, but don't you mean it
> the other way around?
No. "Republic of China" comes from the days when the KMT ruled the isl
At 2004-04-05T16:18:47Z, John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Taiwan, Republic of China" is a political statement that you don't
> recognize China's claim.
I don't follow the Taiwan situation that closely, but don't you mean it the
other way around?
> "Taiwan" is neutral. Failure to parro
I wrote:
> "Taiwan, Republic of China" is as much a political statement as is
> "Taiwan, Province of China". "Taiwan" is just a place name.
Kirk Strauser writes:
> ...and a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim.
"Taiwan, Republic of China" is a political statement that you d
At 2004-04-05T15:12:28Z, John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Taiwan, Republic of China" is as much a political statement as is
> "Taiwan, Province of China". "Taiwan" is just a place name.
...and a political statement that you don't recognize China's claim.
Again, I have no stance on the
Kirk Strauser writes:
> ISO says that Taiwan's name is really "Taiwain, R.O.C.". If Debian
> accepts every other ISO name from that list, but rejects "Taiwan,
> R.O.C.", isn't *that* also a political stance?
"Taiwan, Republic of China" is as much a political statement as is "Taiwan,
Province of C
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 11:52:43AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
>
> Anyone with half a brain can see what moronic thing the `Taiwan,
> Province of China' is. It's the _only_ `editorial comment' in the
> entire list (all other comma-separated entries are simple prefixes which
> when used result in ea
At 2004-04-05T07:21:42Z, Katipo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> To be placed in the position of taking a political stance, without prior
> knowledge and consultation is odious.
Let's try this from the other direction. ISO says that Taiwan's name is
really "Taiwain, R.O.C.". If Debian accepts ever
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:02:31 -0500
John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Adopting an international standard that includes a gratuitous political
> statement is an endorsement of that statement. The added clause serves
> no technical purpose. Throw it out.
*plonk*
--
Chris Metzler
[Please stop sending me private copies of mailing list mail. I read the
list, although probably not for much longer at this rate.]
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 09:17:15PM +0800, Katipo wrote:
> Colin Watson wrote:
> >On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:21:42PM +0800, Katipo wrote:
> >>This far exceeds flamebait
Bruce Miller writes:
> International technical fora are adamant that they discuss only technical
> issues and leave politics to the politicians.
If that were true the subject of this discussion would not exist.
> The International Standards Organizations operates by consensus. The
> flip-side of
Colin Watson wrote:
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:21:42PM +0800, Katipo wrote:
Bruce Miller wrote:
Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for
rising to flamebait.
This far exceeds flamebait. It is a serious issue.
I, myself, feel that we should have all been advise
Weaver writes:
> Taiwan, R.O.C.
Just Taiwan.
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
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To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Miles Bader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Think of it this way: It's a bug from upstream. The text in question
certainly it is NOT a bug. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
You think it is wrong only because you don't like it, even it is a standard.
doesn't fit the format of the file, it's a lo
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 03:21:42PM +0800, Katipo wrote:
> Bruce Miller wrote:
> > Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for
> > rising to flamebait.
>
> This far exceeds flamebait. It is a serious issue.
> I, myself, feel that we should have all been advised of this.
Que? If
This is exactly the reason for which I suggested the name change for
"Taiwan" in iso-codes. As far as I know and as far as I have
understood, the "Taiwan, province of China" name is accepted by both
People Republic of China and "Republic of China" ("Taiwan").
I'm sorry, Christian, but the above sta
"Stefan Tibus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Debian shouldn't _make_ editorial comments like this, but they shouldn't
> > dumbly stand by and mirror those made by others with fewer scruples.
>
> I wouldn't say Debian _made_ that editorial comment, they used it as it
> was proposed by some stand
> Anthony Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Anyone with half a brain can see what moronic thing the `Taiwan,
> Province of China' is. It's the _only_ `editorial comment' in the
> entire list (all other comma-separated entries are simple prefixes which
> when used result in each country's fu
Bruce Miller wrote:
Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for
rising to flamebait.
This far exceeds flamebait. It is a serious issue.
I, myself, feel that we should have all been advised of this.
By using Debian, we endorse it, and everything it represents.
To be placed in
> -Original Message-
> From: dircha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 5 April 2004 1:54 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"?
>
>
> Bruce Miller wrote:
> > It is perfectly reason
Bruce Miller wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable of Debian to adopt an international standard.
It raises Debian above the debate which is taking place here.
I protest. It is not perfectly reasonable. This is not a political issue
for me. I have no established opinion as to whether or not Taiwan is
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Joey Hess was on the mark to criticize members of this list for rising
to flamebait.
International technical fora are adamant that they discuss only
technical issues and leave politics to the politicians. To help this
international technical forum
Anthony Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"? Why can't it
> > just stick with a neutral "Taiwan". Why single out a geographical
> > name and append a political statement to it? Sticks out
Anthony Johnson writes:
> We have to choose names from some standards body somewhere...
The "standards body" in question is the UN, which has labeled the place
"Taiwan, a province of China" for purely political purposes. In normal
conversation the place is referred to simply as "Taiwan". Tacking
John Hasler wrote:
The problem is that we have to use some
STANDARDIZED source of country names.
Why?
First, the purpose of Debian in selecting and presenting a locale name
is not to make a political statement or political value judgment.
What is the purpose of Debian in selecting and presenting
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 07:28:49PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> same. If Debian has a Chinese language version for which the final arbiter
> of language usage is a Mainlander, the name in Debian should also be of
> that person's choosing. If the final arbiter is a resident/citizen of
Here's a w
--- Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of
> China"?
> Why can't it just stick with a neutral "Taiwan".
> Why single out a geographical name and append a
> political statement to it?
> Sticks ou
Incoming from Paul E Condon:
> We have both. We are inclusive. Inclusive is PC. PC is good.
...^^
Please, don't drag that into this. This was a fairly civilized
discussion before that happened.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insuffic
On Mon, Apr 05, 2004 at 08:04:23AM +0800, Katipo wrote:
> Dan Jacobson wrote:
>
> >Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"?
> >
> >
[snip]
Three thoughts:
1. The UN is not the final arbiter of names of political entities.
e.g. except for US veto
Alex Malinovich writes:
> The problem is that we have to use some
> STANDARDIZED source of country names.
Why?
> According to the UN listing, the country name of the location called
> Taiwan, is "Taiwan, Province of China".
Screw the UN. Shorten it to "Taiwan".
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 2004-04-04 at 16:25, Dan Jacobson wrote:
> Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"?
> Why can't it just stick with a neutral "Taiwan".
> Why single out a geographical name and append a political statement to it?
> Sticks out and looks ki
Please don't crosspost flamebait to multiple debian mailing lists.
--
see shy jo
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Dan Jacobson wrote:
Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"?
If this is true, it is an gross understatement to call it a political
faux pas.
The chinese nationalist movement left China and took over Taiwan (Formosa)
during the red campaign.
To remove all 'fac
Dan Jacobson writes:
> Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"? Why can't it just
> stick with a neutral "Taiwan".
No reason I can think of.
--
John Hasler You may treat this work as if it
[EMAIL PROTECTED] were in the pu
Why why must Debian call Taiwan a "Province of China"?
Why can't it just stick with a neutral "Taiwan".
Why single out a geographical name and append a political statement to it?
Sticks out and looks kind of silly.
Who cares what the two governments' official na
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