On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 04:22:53PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> So, do you think that I am Release Manager, and if so, have any power as
> that, and if so, why do I have powers? (Subdelegated via aj -> vorlon ->
> aba?)
I think it is because Debian is an Old Boys' Club and that the Release
Team i
On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 10:29:03AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > > So, this seems to indicate that the way to add new people to the release
> > > team isn't an issue. It however indicates also that there must be a way
> > > how the DPL can change a team in case it isn't working anymore, and e.g.
* Josip Rodin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080503 01:09]:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:31:52PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > So, this seems to indicate that the way to add new people to the release
> > team isn't an issue. It however indicates also that there must be a way
> > how the DPL can change a te
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 06:18:19PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> At the same time, notice that the desire of teams to be less susceptible
>>> to random changes by the DPL stems from the need to avoid cronyism by
On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 06:18:19PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > At the same time, notice that the desire of teams to be less susceptible
> > to random changes by the DPL stems from the need to avoid cronyism by
> > the DPL, which is also possible, thou
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> At the same time, notice that the desire of teams to be less susceptible
> to random changes by the DPL stems from the need to avoid cronyism by
> the DPL, which is also possible, though that one is eventually
> repairable.
This really doesn't seem to be
Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm happy enough if the DPL can stop delegating further on. That's by
> far more practical.
Why? That's part of the job of the DPL. That's sort of like saying that
you'd be happy if package maintainers could stop uploading packages, since
it would be
On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:31:52PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> So, this seems to indicate that the way to add new people to the release
> team isn't an issue. It however indicates also that there must be a way
> how the DPL can change a team in case it isn't working anymore, and e.g.
> add new pe
On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 09:45:08AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> I think you are lending credence to Clint's argument about
> cronyism and wholescale flouting of the constitution here. At first
> blush, this does seem like a failure of the DPL's in question to act.
>
> Now, I
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 11:45:19PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 03:28:48 +0200, Frans Pop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> >> And you think a little GR telling DPL's "go ahead -- you can do it!"
> > [...]
> >> However, feel free to go ahead with make-work; we do need to fill u
On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:51:53AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> Why not making it the other way, allowing the DPL to remove people if he
> wants? So teams can expand themselfs (like the release team regularly
> does), but the DPL can still make sure that no unwanted people are
> delegated there.
>
* Manoj Srivastava ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 16:55]:
> Now, I must admit that cronyism or not, the release management
> seems to be working, but at one point so were some of the other teams,
> which have come under criticism of late for being obstructive.
So, this seems to indicate tha
On Fri, 2 May 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> * Manoj Srivastava ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 15:45]:
>> On Fri, 2 May 2008 11:51:53 +0200, Andreas Barth
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> > * Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 01:27]:
>> > Why not making it the o
* Manoj Srivastava ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 15:45]:
> On Fri, 2 May 2008 11:51:53 +0200, Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > * Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 01:27]:
> > Why not making it the other way, allowing the DPL to remove people if
> > he wants?
>
> Well, that
On Fri, 2 May 2008 11:51:53 +0200, Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> * Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 01:27]:
>> Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> > On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 12:24:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
>>
>> >> Well, if a team decides to expand on its own, whic
* Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [080502 01:27]:
> Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 12:24:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
>
> >> Well, if a team decides to expand on its own, which they do normally,
> >> this
>
> > That should not happen normally. The Constitu
Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 12:24:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
>> Well, if a team decides to expand on its own, which they do normally,
>> this
> That should not happen normally. The Constitution should not allow it
> either.
I agree with this. I think g
On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 11:49:35PM +0100, Stephen Gran wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Josip Rodin said:
> > the developers never made or overrode their decision (4.1.3)
>
> http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_002
Oh, okay, true. That's one. Did I miss any others? :)
--
2. That whic
On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 11:49:58PM +0100, Stephen Gran wrote:
> Don't be silly.
What's silly is pretending that there are these magical autonomous
subcultures called "infrastructure teams" that deserve sovereignty for
no apparent reason.
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This one time, at band camp, Clint Adams said:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 12:24:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > Well, if a team decides to expand on its own, which they do normally, this
>
> That should not happen normally. The Constitution should not allow it
> either.
Don't be silly.
--
--
This one time, at band camp, Josip Rodin said:
> the developers never made or overrode their decision (4.1.3)
http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_002
--
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| ,''`.Stephen Gran |
| : :'
On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 12:24:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Well, if a team decides to expand on its own, which they do normally, this
That should not happen normally. The Constitution should not allow it
either.
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On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 07:45:10AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> Josip Rodin wrote:
> > Anyway, I'd agree to stripping down the detailed procedure, but you still
>
> Sorry for not replying to this thread before.
>
> IMO it is definitely worthwhile to clarify the role of core teams within the
> proje
On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 02:05:08PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 08:15:42PM +0200, Josip Rodin a écrit :
> > >
> > > * Infrastructure teams are encouraged to adapt their sizes to their
> > > workloads,
> > > to ensure that they don't block or slow down the work of other
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 11:54:13PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >> What bothers me about all this is that we had a nicely detaled
> >> document that spells out who has what rights, and it seems fairly
> >> clear to me that all powers in Debian stem from the powers laid down
> >> there; but that
Josip Rodin wrote:
> Anyway, I'd agree to stripping down the detailed procedure, but you still
Sorry for not replying to this thread before.
IMO it is definitely worthwhile to clarify the role of core teams within the
project and to establish some kind of framework to ensure that continuity
in
On Thu, 1 May 2008 01:27:50 +0200, Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 05:27:56PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> What bothers me about all this is that we had a nicely detaled
>> document that spells out who has what rights, and it seems fairly
>> clear to me that a
Le Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 08:15:42PM +0200, Josip Rodin a écrit :
> >
> > * Infrastructure teams are encouraged to adapt their sizes to their
> > workloads,
> > to ensure that they don't block or slow down the work of other Debian
> > contributors.
Hi Josip and everybody,
I understand that ad
On Thu, 1 May 2008 03:28:48 +0200, Frans Pop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> And you think a little GR telling DPL's "go ahead -- you can do it!"
> [...]
>> However, feel free to go ahead with make-work; we do need to fill up
>> the vote page with more than just DPL votes, and I'll happily run
>> GR
> And you think a little GR telling DPL's "go ahead -- you can do it!"
[...]
> However, feel free to go ahead with make-work; we do need to
> fill up the vote page with more than just DPL votes, and I'll happily
> run GR's.
[...]
> What's next, a GR determining the favourite color of the Debian
On Thu, 1 May 2008 01:13:35 +0200, Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> I'd take that approach if there was even a hint of hope that an
> election could give us a leader without a goodness bias, but because
> this general trait is pretty much in the very core of the entire
> electorate, it's h
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 05:27:56PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> What bothers me about all this is that we had a nicely detaled document
> that spells out who has what rights, and it seems fairly clear to me that
> all powers in Debian stem from the powers laid down there; but that
> nicely d
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 05:21:41PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:10:38 +0200, Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 08:42:59PM +0100, Clint Adams wrote:
> >> Why are we electing people like that?!
>
> > Because by default we elect nice people,
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:47:00 -0700, Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> My take on this is that we do not have a problem: at least, none that
>> this GR is addressing. I am of the camp that believe that the only
>> power people have in any cap
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:10:38 +0200, Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 08:42:59PM +0100, Clint Adams wrote:
>> Why are we electing people like that?!
> Because by default we elect nice people, who avoid stepping on
> people's toes. Which is generally a good thing, bu
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
[DPLs]
> Because by default we elect nice people, who avoid stepping on people's
> toes.
What, like Overfiend?
Marc
--
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On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 08:42:59PM +0100, Clint Adams wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 09:40:31PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > I think that it's going to make a difference, because it will eliminate
> > the notion that there are grey areas, which has historically obstructed
> > progress - no leade
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 09:40:31PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> I think that it's going to make a difference, because it will eliminate
> the notion that there are grey areas, which has historically obstructed
> progress - no leader wanted to order people to do things differently when
> it was not c
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> My take on this is that we do not have a problem: at least, none
> that this GR is addressing. I am of the camp that believe that the
> only power people have in any capacity in Debian flows from the
> constitution; which means either the
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 02:14:39PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > You state the problem yourself - the *current* DPL(s) are doing
> > *something*, but we don't actually know much about it, or if any of it
> > will happen again, or if the next different DPL and his inaction will
> > mark the sta
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:07:05 +0200, Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:02:24AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> I am of the camp that believe that the only power people have in any
>> capacity in Debian flows from the constitution; which means either
>> the powers
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 08:24:25PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > Debian developers acknowledge the following:
> >
> > * The Debian Project infrastructure is run by people who volunteer their
> > time and knowledge in a good-faith effort to help the Debian Project.
> > * The practice of existi
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:02:24AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> I am of the camp that believe that the only power people have in any
> capacity in Debian flows from the constitution; which means either the
> powers listed for developers, or as delegates of the DPL. Recent
> delegation acti
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:55:29PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> The main goal of my proposal is to allow people to choose between (A)
> and (B) explicitely.
OK, I was actually hoping for that myself, I think I actually voiced that at
one point last year :)
> > Hmm. In the last few weeks, we
Hi,
On 30/04/08 at 00:53 +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Maybe my timing was bad, but no seconds, no objections, and one reply
> - that sounds like we have a showstopper problem with motivating
> people to do *anything* about this, and I'm thinking that we need to
> understand that before we think abo
On 30/04/08 at 00:53 +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 08:24:25PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > > Debian developers acknowledge the following:
> > >
> > > * The Debian Project infrastructure is run by people who volunteer their
> > > time and knowledge in a good-faith effort
Hi,
On Saturday 19 April 2008 20:24, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> I'm still not convinced that we need all that bureaucracy. Here is a
> draft amemdment.
> -
> Draft amendment - Project infrastructure team procedures
>
> > Debian developers acknowledge the following:
> >
> > * The Debian Project i
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 08:24:25PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> I'm still not convinced that we need all that bureaucracy. Here is a
> draft amemdment. If we vote on both your proposal and this admendment,
> could you tell me why I should rank your proposal higher than the
> amendment?
Apparentl
On 17/04/08 at 21:34 +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This originates from the debian-project mailing list discussions at
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00020.html
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/10/msg00064.html
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/1
Hi,
This originates from the debian-project mailing list discussions at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00020.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/10/msg00064.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/10/msg00142.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2008
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