Le samedi 03 avril 2021 à 15:41:43+0200, Milan Zamazal a écrit :
> > "SM" == Steve McIntyre writes:
>
> SM> On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 12:26:56PM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
> >> On Friday, 2 April 2021 11:09:42 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> >>> Thanks for arguing for my poi
> "SM" == Steve McIntyre writes:
SM> On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 12:26:56PM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
>> On Friday, 2 April 2021 11:09:42 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>>> Thanks for arguing for my point: Communism was a beautiful
>>> theoretical
>>> idea which was i
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 12:26:56PM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
>On Friday, 2 April 2021 11:09:42 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>> Thanks for arguing for my point: Communism was a beautiful theoretical
>> idea which was implemented by humans and therefore was a miserable
>> fuckup in the end.
On 4/3/21 03:26, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
On Friday, 2 April 2021 11:09:42 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
Thanks for arguing for my point: Communism was a beautiful theoretical
idea which was implemented by humans and therefore was a miserable
fuckup in the end.
I still think the concept is
On Friday, 2 April 2021 11:09:42 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Thanks for arguing for my point: Communism was a beautiful theoretical
> idea which was implemented by humans and therefore was a miserable
> fuckup in the end.
>
> I still think the concept is really interesting, but I can't s
Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 21:48:53-0400, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz a écrit :
> On 2021-04-01 9:01 p.m., Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
> > defeat communism and prevent it from raising
> > its ugly head again.
>
> Option 6:
>
> "Debian will fight hard to defeat communism and prevent it from raising
> its ugly he
Le vendredi 02 avril 2021 à 12:01:39+1100, Dmitry Smirnov a écrit :
> On Thursday, 1 April 2021 7:56:12 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > Freedom of speech is one of the theoretically most beautiful ideas
> > Humans ever created. So is Communism.
>
> Communism (i.e. fascism + marxism) is an
On 2021-04-01 9:01 p.m., Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
> defeat communism and prevent it from raising
> its ugly head again.
Option 6:
"Debian will fight hard to defeat communism and prevent it from raising
its ugly head again, whatever this GR is about".
Come on folks, we can do better than that!
--
T
On Thursday, 1 April 2021 7:56:12 PM AEDT Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Freedom of speech is one of the theoretically most beautiful ideas
> Humans ever created. So is Communism.
Communism (i.e. fascism + marxism) is an ultimate "cancel culture" that
terminated at least 100 million lives in 20th c
Le mercredi 31 mars 2021 à 09:12:24+1100, Dmitry Smirnov a écrit :
> On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 11:38:25 PM AEDT Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
>
> Here is a good reply to this very statement:
>
> ~~~
> "Freedom of speech is supposed to imp
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 09:12:24AM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
> On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 11:38:25 PM AEDT Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
> Here is a good reply to this very statement:
> ~~~
> "Freedom of speech is supposed to imply free
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 09:12:24AM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
>On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 11:38:25 PM AEDT Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
>
>Here is a good reply to this very statement:
>
>~~~
>"Freedom of speech is supposed to imply freedom
On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 11:38:25 PM AEDT Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
Here is a good reply to this very statement:
~~~
"Freedom of speech is supposed to imply freedom from quite a wide range
of possible consequences; mostly consequences
Hello,
On 26.03.21 23:12, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
Ulrike Uhlig wrote:
That said, let's escalate your example a bit
"Escalate a bit" is quite an understatement, as you turned it into an
example of criminal behavior.
I'm just showing you the limits of what you call "free speech" :)
I think
Le vendredi 26 mars 2021 à 00:09:40+0200, Adrian Bunk a écrit :
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:38:56PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >...
> > We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
> > what people say and do around us. We're not a government. We are *not*
> > in the situation where
Le vendredi 26 mars 2021 à 23:12:45+0100, Gerardo Ballabio a écrit :
> Ulrike Uhlig wrote:
> > That said, let's escalate your example a bit
>
> "Escalate a bit" is quite an understatement, as you turned it into an
> example of criminal behavior. Which makes it irrelevant to the subject
> of this d
Ulrike Uhlig wrote:
> That said, let's escalate your example a bit
"Escalate a bit" is quite an understatement, as you turned it into an
example of criminal behavior. Which makes it irrelevant to the subject
of this discussion, i.e., whether people can be discriminated for
expressing their opinion
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:05:44AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
> > what people say and do around us. We're not a government.
>
> So only governments should not discriminate people?
>
> > Try a simple thought ex
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:47:31AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Christian Kastner wrote:
> > On 26.03.21 01:06, Simon Richter wrote:
> > > >(2) how deeply Debian gets involved
> > > We are in a prominent position. The OSI's Open Source Definition is
> > > derived from the Debian Free Software
Christian Kastner wrote:
On 26.03.21 01:06, Simon Richter wrote:
(2) how deeply Debian gets involved
We are in a prominent position. The OSI's Open Source Definition is
derived from the Debian Free Software Guidelines, after all, not the
other way 'round.
There is no way for us to not be in
On 26.03.21 10:05, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
Steve McIntyre wrote:
We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
what people say and do around us. We're not a government.
So only governments should not discriminate people?
Try a simple thought experiment: if you think that only th
Steve McIntyre wrote:
> We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
> what people say and do around us. We're not a government.
So only governments should not discriminate people?
> Try a simple thought experiment: if you think that only the law (which
> country?) has any bearing here
Hi,
On 26.03.21 08:32, Christian Kastner wrote:
> All I'm saying is that when people speak out about the wish to be
> apolitical, the term 'apolitical' should not be taken in the widest
> possible sense, which covers any action or inaction, and then dismissed
> for being impossible.
> Rather, in
On 26.03.21 01:06, Simon Richter wrote:
>> (2) how deeply Debian gets involved
>
> We are in a prominent position. The OSI's Open Source Definition is
> derived from the Debian Free Software Guidelines, after all, not the
> other way 'round.
>
> There is no way for us to not be involved in some
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:33 PM Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
> being expelled from an association can be
> contested in regular courts.
So can incitement to mayhem. What if a crazy person harms a targeted
individual after reading Debian's statement?
Alternatively, please consider libel: Debian prob
Hi,
On 25.03.21 23:32, Christian Kastner wrote:
>> the "technical" decisions we make based on that also have political
>> consequences.
> That's taking meaning of the word 'political' in the widest possible
> sense, and in that sense, literally any action (or inaction) carried out
> by an indivi
Hi!
On 25.03.21 21:18, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
Steve McIntyre wrote:
Do we really have to go through this argument *again*?
Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
The point is who decides what the consequences are.
That should be up to the legal system, not to some ra
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 03:38:40PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
>...
> It is an
> infringement of the freedom of association of all other Debian developers if
> we are not able to exclude someone based on the views they express and the
> actions they take.
>
> Labor rights are entirely different f
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:21:56PM -0400, Sandro Tosi wrote:
ok i can no longer be silent (and it's in no way referred to Philip,
whose email i'm reply to)
so that it is very clear that there is room for dissenting opinion, and
with a link to the vote page so that anyone that is interested can
On Mar 24, 2021 at 12:38:25, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
>
> If you say unpopular, controversial things then it's entirely
> reasonable that people around you may evaluate you based on what
> you've said. They may decide that they don't want
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 03:38:40PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 06:28:36PM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:20:33PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:09:40AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > >On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at
On 25.03.21 22:32, Simon Richter wrote:
> Pretty much everything Debian does is political
> the "technical" decisions we make based on that also have political
> consequences.
That's taking meaning of the word 'political' in the widest possible
sense, and in that sense, literally any action (or i
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 06:28:36PM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
>On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:20:33PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:09:40AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>> >On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:38:56PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> >>...
>> >> We *entirely* have
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 06:28:36PM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:20:33PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:09:40AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > >On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:38:56PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > >>...
> > >> We *entirely*
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:38:56PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>...
> We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
> what people say and do around us. We're not a government. We are *not*
> in the situation where we *have* to support people saying things that we
> believe to be bad, wro
It's not like it's a call to silence him forever. It is however a call
to remove him from a position he appears to be unfit for.
I agree with everything you are saying, but I note that the wording of
the open letter is much harsher, with statements like "our communities
have *no space* for peopl
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:20:33PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:09:40AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> >On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:38:56PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >>...
> >> We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
> >> what people say and do around u
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 12:09:40AM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:38:56PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>...
>> We *entirely* have the freedom to discriminate based on
>> what people say and do around us. We're not a government. We are *not*
>> in the situation where we *have
Hi Roberto,
On 25.03.21 18:59, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> I understand that it is not always possible to be completely apolitical,
> even for Debian as an organization.
Pretty much everything Debian does is political.
Free software enables users' technical autonomy, and this completely
shifts
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:18:10PM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
>Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> Do we really have to go through this argument *again*?
>
>I didn't start this discussion.
But you've spoken up in a previous discussion and we spoke then.
>> Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from
Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Do we really have to go through this argument *again*?
I didn't start this discussion.
> Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
The point is who decides what the consequences are.
That should be up to the legal system, not to some random group of
peo
On 26/03/21 1:46 am, Sean Whitton wrote:
> Hello Martin,
>
> On Thu 25 Mar 2021 at 06:15PM +01, Martin Pitt wrote:
>
>> As this is is a highly political, divisive, and personal topic, not a
>> technical one, I'd really hope that this would be a secret vote, much
>> like the Debian leader voting?
>
Hello Martin,
On Thu 25 Mar 2021 at 06:15PM +01, Martin Pitt wrote:
> As this is is a highly political, divisive, and personal topic, not a
> technical one, I'd really hope that this would be a secret vote, much
> like the Debian leader voting?
It's not technical indeed, but I think it would be
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes:
Steve> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 01:59:25PM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
>> Why not dispense with the vote and simply have the DPL sign for
>> the project? Then at least those who are not in agreement will
>> not feel directly targeted, t
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 01:59:25PM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> Why not dispense with the vote and simply have the DPL sign for the
> project? Then at least those who are not in agreement will not feel
> directly targeted, though they may disagree with the outcome.
Constitutionally, this is
Hi,
I signed the letter because, among other things, I have my own
experience of hosting Stallman at my home few years ago.
But I believe that the choice to sign the letter must be individual.
Many of us have Stallman as a hero (despite all his problems) and do not
agree with the letter. And
> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez writes:
Roberto> Given the rush to shorten the discussion period and make it
Roberto> a simple yes/no vote, it does not seem likely that a
Roberto> well-worded statement could be put together, seconded, and
Roberto> then discussed.
If someone
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 07:28:14PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Gard Spreemann (2021-03-25 19:21:36)
> >
> > Margarita Manterola writes:
> >
> > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:59 PM Roberto C. Sánchez
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Essentially, voting in this GR is implicitly
> > >> compuls
Quoting Gard Spreemann (2021-03-25 19:21:36)
>
> Margarita Manterola writes:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:59 PM Roberto C. Sánchez
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Essentially, voting in this GR is implicitly
> >> compulsory and there is only one correct way to vote.
> >
> >
> > Also not true. The GR is
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 07:21:36PM +0100, Gard Spreemann wrote:
> >> Essentially, voting in this GR is implicitly
> >> compulsory and there is only one correct way to vote.
> >
> >
> > Also not true. The GR is to vote whether Debian issues a statement about
> > this or not. If you think Debian shou
Margarita Manterola writes:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:59 PM Roberto C. Sánchez
> wrote:
>
>> Essentially, voting in this GR is implicitly
>> compulsory and there is only one correct way to vote.
>
>
> Also not true. The GR is to vote whether Debian issues a statement about
> this or not. If y
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:59 PM Roberto C. Sánchez
wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 06:15:27PM +0100, Martin Pitt wrote:
> > Exactly -- if this is an open vote, I'm afraid that would merely force a
> > (possibly) large number of Debian members to not vote at all. Honestly,
> in that
> > ligh
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 06:15:27PM +0100, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Hello Sandro,
>
> Sandro Tosi [2021-03-25 12:21 -0400]:
> > That scares me. what will happen to the list of people who disagree
> > with the ratification of the statement by Debian as a project? The
> > people that are so strongly push
Martin Pitt writes:
> As this is is a highly political, divisive, and personal topic, not a
> technical
> one, I'd really hope that this would be a secret vote, much like the Debian
> leader voting?
>
> You bring up a good point here. If this is going to be an open vote, then this
> is senseless p
Hello Sandro,
Sandro Tosi [2021-03-25 12:21 -0400]:
> That scares me. what will happen to the list of people who disagree
> with the ratification of the statement by Debian as a project? The
> people that are so strongly pushing for this (and many other) actions
> will have a list of (in their eye
Daniel Lenharo dijo [Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 08:14:47AM -0300]:
> > so that it is very clear that there is room for dissenting opinion, and
> > with a link to the vote page so that anyone that is interested can
> > easily discover how individuals voted on the issue?
>
> If we have a GR, that most of
ok i can no longer be silent (and it's in no way referred to Philip,
whose email i'm reply to)
> so that it is very clear that there is room for dissenting opinion, and
> with a link to the vote page so that anyone that is interested can
> easily discover how individuals voted on the issue?
That
Em 25/03/2021 05:45, Philip Hands escreveu:
so that it is very clear that there is room for dissenting opinion, and
with a link to the vote page so that anyone that is interested can
easily discover how individuals voted on the issue?
If we have a GR, that most of the people vote to have a po
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:53:23PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On this particular issue, I feel it's better that individual
> developers go and make their voices heard.
Thank you Jonathan! I really hope most DDs feel the same way.
I vote no.
I do not think Debian should be involved in personal attacks or
witchhunting for any reason.
I support the individual's choice to make their voice heard, but it is not
Debian's place to join in. I object to Debian's name being used in this way.
Query: Has this wording been approved by
Hi mak,
>Think about the signal
we send if we as a community are okay with a person openly debating
whether sex with children is okay in a leading role at the top of the
organization that's promoting software freedom.
Since this is being repeated everywhere and also on this vote, I just wanted to
Daniel Lenharo writes:
> Em 24/03/2021 18:53, Jonathan Carter escreveu:
>
>> I'm comfortable making a statement on behalf of the project if
>> necessary. On this particular issue, I feel it's better that individual
>> developers go and make their voices heard. That said, I will also
>> respect th
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:44:45PM +, Martina Ferrari wrote:
> Isn't it funny how in threads discussing social justice there are always the
> same opinions coming from the same names, time and time again?
Probably most other people don't care, don't see a reason to repeat the
majority opinion o
Em 24/03/2021 18:53, Jonathan Carter escreveu:
I'm comfortable making a statement on behalf of the project if
necessary. On this particular issue, I feel it's better that individual
developers go and make their voices heard. That said, I will also
respect the outcome of the GR and follow it if i
Isn't it funny how in threads discussing social justice there are always
the same opinions coming from the same names, time and time again?
One or two more of the usual names and arguments and I fill my bingo card!
From: Adam Borowski
I'm also disgusted with such hatred towards the per
Sorry, for some reason I didn't get Gunnar's original mail so going to
reply here...
On 2021/03/24 02:24, M dB wrote:
>> https://opensource.org/OSI_Response
>> https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>>
>> Now, as for my question: I thought repeatedly over the last couple of
>> days whether to
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:38:25PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Freedom of speech does *not* mean freedom from consequences.
>
> If you say unpopular, controversial things then it's entirely
> reasonable that people around you may evaluate you based on what
> you've said. They may decide that th
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:38:25PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>...
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:32:31PM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> >Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> >> Inclusivity and tolerance does not mean we have to accept every opinion as
> >> equally valid.
> >
> >Equally valid -- no.
> >Legi
Gunnar Wolf wrote:
Hello,
I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
Directors of the FSF. That is something deeply disturbing and
confidence-shattering for many of us.
If anything, it's about time to r
Do we really have to go through this argument *again*?
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:32:31PM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
>Matthias Klumpp wrote:
>> Inclusivity and tolerance does not mean we have to accept every opinion as
>> equally valid.
>
>Equally valid -- no.
>Legitimate to express -- yes.
>
Quoting Gerardo Ballabio (2021-03-24 12:32:31)
> Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> > Inclusivity and tolerance does not mean we have to accept every opinion as
> > equally valid.
>
> Equally valid -- no.
> Legitimate to express -- yes.
>
> I am really worried about the increasing trend (not specific to
>
Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> Inclusivity and tolerance does not mean we have to accept every opinion as
> equally valid.
Equally valid -- no.
Legitimate to express -- yes.
I am really worried about the increasing trend (not specific to
Debian) towards demanding that people who hold "dissenting" opin
Adam Borowski writes:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 04:56:39PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
>> last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
>> Directors of the FSF. That is something deeply disturb
On 24/03/21 4:26 am, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
> last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
> Directors of the FSF. That is something deeply disturbing and
> confidence-shattering for many of us.
>
> S
On 24/03/21 5:52 am, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> No human can do anything that makes them immune to criticism. This is
> not a matter of hate, I actually doubt anyone who signed the petition
> really "hates" RMS.
> RMS without a doubt did a lot of good with starting the FSF and his
> early work on F
Regardless of what Debian decides to do,
https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ is an open letter and you are welcome
to sign it.
Cheers,
M.
On 3/23/21 6:56 PM, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
> last week Richard Stallman was reins
Am Mi., 24. März 2021 um 00:22 Uhr schrieb Adam Borowski :
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 04:56:39PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
> > last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
> > Directors of
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:57 PM Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Now, as for my question: I thought repeatedly over the last couple of
> days whether to start something like this in Debian... But, what would
> it take for the project to issue a statement in this line? Would we
> have to pass a GR?
Without co
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 04:56:39PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
> > last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
> > Directors of t
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 04:56:39PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
> last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
> Directors of the FSF. That is something deeply disturbing and
> confidence-shattering
Hello,
I hope not to be too inflamatory with this. As you are surely aware,
last week Richard Stallman was reinstated as part of the Board of
Directors of the FSF. That is something deeply disturbing and
confidence-shattering for many of us.
Some people have moved to action -- if nothing more, at
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