Obviously the higher up the management tree that one goes, the less the
likelihood of finding someone who knows what systemd is, let alone
appreciates that running a systemd-based distro on a server is a risk,
if not actually a danger.
In my own case - (a) I hate systemd for all the standard
Radisson via Dng said on Wed, 1 Dec 2021 21:55:13 +0100
>Am 19.11.21 um 12:29 schrieb Peter Duffy:
>> I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number
>> of linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've
>> had a concern raised which took me by surprise. It
Am 19.11.21 um 12:29 schrieb Peter Duffy:
I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the
future, it may not be possible to find
Thanks for posting that. I confess that I'd not seen it before. It does
indeed hit all the nails squarely on the heads.
On Sat, 2021-11-27 at 15:39 -0600, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> On 2021-11-27 15:00, Mark Rousell wrote:
> > On 25/11/2021 22:57, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> Like I said in 2014,
> >>
On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:09:33 -0600
goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> On 2021-11-27 18:27, tito via Dng wrote:
> > On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:39:53 -0600
> > goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> >
> >> On 2021-11-27 15:00, Mark Rousell wrote:
> >> > On 25/11/2021 22:57, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> >> Like I said in
goli...@devuan.org said on Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:39:53 -0600
>Just have to repost this prescient rant about systemd from 2014. My
>all time fav!
>http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
Sounds like 2014 alright! That's just how I remember 2014 discussions
sounding.
The
On 2021-11-27 18:27, tito via Dng wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:39:53 -0600
goli...@devuan.org wrote:
On 2021-11-27 15:00, Mark Rousell wrote:
> On 25/11/2021 22:57, Steve Litt wrote:
>> Like I said in 2014,
>> they won't quit until the cat command requires systemd.
>
> They won't stop until
On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:39:53 -0600
goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> On 2021-11-27 15:00, Mark Rousell wrote:
> > On 25/11/2021 22:57, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> Like I said in 2014,
> >> they won't quit until the cat command requires systemd.
> >
> > They won't stop until SystemD is in the kernel, such
On 2021-11-27 15:00, Mark Rousell wrote:
On 25/11/2021 22:57, Steve Litt wrote:
Like I said in 2014,
they won't quit until the cat command requires systemd.
They won't stop until SystemD is in the kernel, such that Linux
unavoidably is SystemD.
Just have to repost this prescient rant about
On 25/11/2021 22:57, Steve Litt wrote:
> Like I said in 2014,
> they won't quit until the cat command requires systemd.
They won't stop until SystemD is in the kernel, such that Linux
unavoidably is SystemD.
--
Mark Rousell
___
Dng mailing
On 26/11/2021 16:55, Peter Duffy wrote:
> Maybe the problem with the car analogy is that it's only really
> applicable to end-user computers - desktops and laptops. For servers,
> the analogy would need to be extended to buses and HGVs. In those cases,
> where many people rely on the availability
On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 21:30:38 -0500
Steve Litt wrote:
> Peter Duffy said on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:08:27 +
>
> >It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
> >They'd invent an illness, and then claim to have a remedy for it:
> >
>
On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 20:29:07 -0600
Rod Rodolico wrote:
> For a really nice Linux based router distro, look at IPFire
> (https://www.ipfire.org/). They suffer from being too small, so they
> don't have a lot of people testing, so updates sometimes have issues.
> But, it is very secure, and has
On 11/26/21 3:59 PM, d...@d404.nl wrote:
On 26-11-2021 21:53, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng wrote:
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 26 Nov 15:33:11 -0500
Ken Dibble scripsit:
On 11/26/21 1:57 PM, d...@d404.nl wrote:
On 26-11-2021 17:27, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
On 2021-11-26 05:08, Peter Duffy wrote:
Peter Duffy said on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:08:27 +
>It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
>They'd invent an illness, and then claim to have a remedy for it:
>
>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marthambles
Or, more recently, http://bentcarrot.com.
It's bent? Oh, the
On 26-11-2021 21:53, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng wrote:
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 26 Nov 15:33:11 -0500
Ken Dibble scripsit:
On 11/26/21 1:57 PM, d...@d404.nl wrote:
On 26-11-2021 17:27, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
On 2021-11-26 05:08, Peter Duffy wrote:
It's a bit like the charlatans and fake
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 26 Nov 15:33:11 -0500
Ken Dibble scripsit:
> On 11/26/21 1:57 PM, d...@d404.nl wrote:
> > On 26-11-2021 17:27, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> >> On 2021-11-26 05:08, Peter Duffy wrote:
> >>> It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
> >>> They'd invent
Steve Litt wrote:
>>> I've wondered for a long time if it would be independently possible
>>> to make systemd optional.
>>
>> I think you found that the answer is no.
>
> I think you might be pleasantly surprised. In, to use the term loosely,
> "discussions" with systemd's biggest fanboy
On 11/26/21 1:57 PM, d...@d404.nl wrote:
On 26-11-2021 17:27, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
On 2021-11-26 05:08, Peter Duffy wrote:
It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
They'd invent an illness, and then claim to have a remedy for it:
On 26-11-2021 17:27, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
On 2021-11-26 05:08, Peter Duffy wrote:
It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
They'd invent an illness, and then claim to have a remedy for it:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marthambles
LOL! Isn't that exactly
Le 26/11/2021 à 12:05, Peter Duffy a écrit :
> The trouble is that it's not just an OS for geeks - it's the OS on which
> the vast majority of the internet runs.
>
> If the sysadmins who maintain the servers which form the infrastructure
> and backbone of the internet were to get de-skilled, that
On Thu, 2021-11-25 at 18:11 +, Simon wrote:
> In the early days of motoring, you had a lot to learn and cars were
> non-trivial to drive and to keep going - to the extent that many users
> employed someone to do the driving for them. Roll forward through the
> years, and cars have got more
On 2021-11-26 05:08, Peter Duffy wrote:
It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
They'd invent an illness, and then claim to have a remedy for it:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marthambles
LOL! Isn't that exactly what big pharma is still doing with direct
On 11/25/21 17:11, Steve Litt wrote:
[snip]
Imagine if they made a car with the engine compartment welded shut, and
gave you a little cockpit in the passenger compartment to control a
robot inside the engine compartment that would do maintenance and
repairs.
That's not too far off from new
It's a bit like the charlatans and fake doctors in past centuries.
They'd invent an illness, and then claim to have a remedy for it:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marthambles
On Thu, 2021-11-25 at 09:55 -0800, Syeed Ali wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:35:13 -0500
> Steve Litt wrote:
>
> > I
The trouble is that it's not just an OS for geeks - it's the OS on which
the vast majority of the internet runs.
If the sysadmins who maintain the servers which form the infrastructure
and backbone of the internet were to get de-skilled, that would be a
very big problem. (Although, I should say
Simon said on Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:11:09 +
>Peter Duffy wrote:
>
>> So customers pay to be insulated from complexity. Just so obviously a
>> blatant restating of the M$ attitude - which is the reason why there
>> are so many clueless computer users the world over, and by
>> extension, so much
Syeed Ali said on Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:57:51 -0800
>On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:11:09 +
>Simon wrote:
>
>> In the early days of motoring, you had a lot to learn and cars were
>> non-trivial to drive and to keep going - to the extent that many
>> users employed someone to do the driving for them.
Peter Duffy said on Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:51:18 +
>I can't add much to the description of the situation without violating
>confidentiality constraints. However, I can say a few things about my
>own position re. this. If it's TL:DR - apologies and no worries.
Given the confidentiality
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:11:09 +
Simon wrote:
> In the early days of motoring, you had a lot to learn and cars were
> non-trivial to drive and to keep going - to the extent that many
> users employed someone to do the driving for them. Roll forward
> through the years, and cars have got more
Le 25/11/2021 à 19:11, Simon a écrit :
> So in some ways it’s a step along the road of making things easier for the
> general user, or in this case, the power user or novice admin. So yes, the
> user does get what they are asking for - but the downside is that when it
> breaks, it’s harder to
Peter Duffy wrote:
> So customers pay to be insulated from complexity. Just so obviously a
> blatant restating of the M$ attitude - which is the reason why there are
> so many clueless computer users the world over, and by extension, so
> much cybercrime.
That’s a “complicated” discussion.
Take
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:35:13 -0500
Steve Litt wrote:
> I quote then-Redhat CTO Brian Stevens: "Red Hat's model works because
> of the complexity of the technology we work with."
Create the problem, provide the solution.
___
Dng mailing list
On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:11:15 -0500
Steve Litt wrote:
> Imagine if they made a car with the engine compartment welded shut,
> and gave you a little cockpit in the passenger compartment to control
> a robot inside the engine compartment that would do maintenance and
> repairs.
>
> What could
So customers pay to be insulated from complexity. Just so obviously a
blatant restating of the M$ attitude - which is the reason why there are
so many clueless computer users the world over, and by extension, so
much cybercrime.
But if systemd makes it more difficult to solve problems, and
Peter Duffy said on Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:51:18 +
>I've said it before and I'll say it again. All this could have been
>avoided - if systemd had been made optional from day 1. People who
>liked it could use it; people who didn't like it could use something
>else. Email traffic to the systemd
Peter Duffy said on Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:51:18 +
> The
>systemd "tools" drove me insane - it felt as though they were actively
>preventing me from accessing the information I needed.
Imagine if they made a car with the engine compartment welded shut, and
gave you a little cockpit in the
Peter Duffy said on Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:51:18 +
>However, I gradually started to wonder. If it's the case
>that most linux servers are getting upgraded to systemd-based releases,
Downgraded. :-)
SteveT
Steve Litt
Spring 2021 featured book:
I just wanted to thank all who responded to my post: the comments were
extremely thought-provoking. One thing which came out often and
confirmed my own view is that it takes a sysadmin to assess the
capabilities of a sysadmin: for management to do so, without the input
of the guys at the coal
tito via Dng said on Mon, 22 Nov 2021 14:08:26 +0100
>On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 04:41:23 -0500
>Steve Litt wrote:
>
>> steph.tougard said on Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:19:36 +
>>
>>
>> >My Devuan is behind an OpenBSD. The OpenBSD has no software
>> >installed, it's a pure system as release by the
On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 04:41:23 -0500
Steve Litt wrote:
> steph.tougard said on Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:19:36 +
>
>
> >My Devuan is behind an OpenBSD. The OpenBSD has no software installed,
> >it's a pure system as release by the OpenBSD team, the code base is
> >small, strongly audited by a very
On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 01:12:07PM -0600, Rod Rodolico via Dng wrote:
> Debian, Redhat, etc... are actually more "based on Unix" than "Unix",
> and that process appears to be growing as more and more functions are
> taken over by system-d. Just like you can say that OS X is "based on"
> Unix, but
steph.tougard said on Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:19:36 +
>The right answer is to do whatever the customer asks, as stupid as it
>seems.
>
>If the customer was intelligent, he would not even ask a GNU/Linux
>system in the first place, it's bloated by nature, kitrooted by
>default and uselessly
steph.tougard said on Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:19:36 +
>My Devuan is behind an OpenBSD. The OpenBSD has no software installed,
>it's a pure system as release by the OpenBSD team, the code base is
>small, strongly audited by a very small and known team. It can be
>considered safe, at least safer.
One possible point to make is that, while many system-d sysadmins may
have initial difficulty with Devuan, there are tons of Unix sysadmins
who would be up to speed in a manner of hours.
Debian, Redhat, etc... are actually more "based on Unix" than "Unix",
and that process appears to be growing
On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 3:50 PM Bob Proulx via Dng
wrote:
> Peter Duffy wrote:
> > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
> > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
> > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that
> In one of the wholesalers I frequent, there’s a sign up behind the counter
> for their staff - it basically says “no one ever won an argument with a
> customer”. It then goes on to point out that the customer is the reason for
> them being there, the customer pays their wages, and so on.
>
Adrian Zaugg wrote:
> One more thing: A management how decides on products their IT has to work
> with, is like a team manager who tells a coach which player to send on the
> ice
> during a hockey game. A no-go. Technical decisions are IT decisions,
> financial
> and functional decisions
On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:19:36 +
"steph.tougard via Dng" wrote:
> The right answer is to do whatever the customer asks, as stupid as it seems.
>
> If the customer was intelligent, he would not even ask a GNU/Linux system in
> the first place, it's bloated by nature, kitrooted by default and
The right answer is to do whatever the customer asks, as stupid as it seems.
If the customer was intelligent, he would not even ask a GNU/Linux system in
the first place, it's bloated by nature, kitrooted by default and uselessly
complicated (SystemD is just one more argument against Linux, not
Peter Duffy wrote:
> I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
> linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
> concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the
> future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the
steph.tougard via Dng said on Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:06:53 +
>The question is so stupid that it does not even call for an answer.
Ad-homonym logical fallacy.
>
>If an admin is unable to understand a Unix system without SystemD,
>he's not a sys admin.
No True Scotsman logical fallacy.
The OP
The question is so stupid that it does not even call for an answer.
If an admin is unable to understand a Unix system without SystemD, he's not a
sys admin.
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, November 20th, 2021 at 12:44, Syeed Ali
wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:29:32 +
>
>
On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:29:32 +
Peter Duffy wrote:
> It was suggested that in the future, it may not be possible to find
> staff who have the skills to administer and manage servers running
> non-systemd or pre-systemd distros/releases.
This is a useful thought experiment. It does come from
Peter Duffy said on Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:29:32 +
>I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
>linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
>concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the
>future, it may not be
On 2021-11-19 16:03, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:
I’m waiting to see what comes out of the systemd replacement software
in development by Laurent Bercot, the developer of s6. The project
now has a corporate sponsor so it would appear someone sees a
commercial benefit of his proposed design.
> On 19 Nov 2021, at 22:29, Peter Duffy wrote:
>
> I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
> linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
> concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the
> future, it may not be
Hi Peter
Under normal circumstances an admin does not have to get in touch with the
init system or start-up mechanisms too much: If the job by the package
maintainer is done, it works as intended. In case of non-packaged software,
when a startup-script is missing, it might be a little bit
On 11/19/21 05:29, Peter Duffy wrote:
I'd be grateful for thoughts and comments.
Welp, I've been a nix admin long enough that I still have some Redhat 5.1 CDs around here
somewhere.. back from when Redhat wasn't such a corporate pr#ck. I see Devuan in the
exact same place Linux was all
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 13:56:17 +0100
al3xu5 via Dng scripsit:
> Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:45:48 +0100 - "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng"
> :
>
> > Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 07:33:09 -0500
> > Rich W via Dng scripsit:
> > > Sadly, this will probably never change.
> > >
> > > They used the same
Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:45:48 +0100 - "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng"
:
> Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 07:33:09 -0500
> Rich W via Dng scripsit:
> > Sadly, this will probably never change.
> >
> > They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones
> > in the past.
>
> Which
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 07:33:09 -0500
Rich W via Dng scripsit:
> Sadly, this will probably never change.
>
> They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones in
> the past.
Which basicly translates to "I want to pay less".
Nik
>
> -Rich
> (Apologies if gmail client
Sadly, this will probably never change.
They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones in
the past.
-Rich
(Apologies if gmail client messed up this thread)
On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 7:14 AM Antony Stone <
antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it> wrote:
> On Friday 19 November
On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:14:31, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:06:48, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit :
> > > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
> > > linux servers, and I proposed going to
On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:06:48, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit :
> > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
> > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
> > concern raised which took me by
Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit :
> I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
> linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
> concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the
> future, it may not be possible
I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of
linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a
concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the
future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to
administer and
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