Le 15/02/2015 19:36, Nate Bargmann a écrit :
* On 2015 15 Feb 07:33 -0600, Vince Mulhollon wrote:
Meanwhile the devs can't eat their own dogfood because they're not utter
noobs, and nobody wants the featurelist marketing is pushing.
Indeed. I've followed Planet Debian for some time and do rea
* On 2015 15 Feb 07:33 -0600, Vince Mulhollon wrote:
> Meanwhile the devs can't eat their own dogfood because they're not utter
> noobs, and nobody wants the featurelist marketing is pushing.
Indeed. I've followed Planet Debian for some time and do read LWN semi
regularly. It astonished me at fi
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:26:45AM -0500, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com
wrote:
>
> I agree that use of C has lessened, and that less of us understand C
> today. I disagree that this is necessarily the cause of the problem.
> Personally, I think that anything that *can* be written in Python,
>
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Nuno Magalhães
wrote:
> which is required if you want to appeal to new users.
>
That's the problem with the obese DEs. Corporate marketing says all that
matters is the noobs, oh and we need this list of features nobody actually
uses for our marketing campaigns i
On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:17:36 -0600
"T.J. Duchene" wrote:
> "John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from
> systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that
> various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least
> more opaque than in the pas
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Martijn Dekkers
wrote:
> Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I don't
> think we will ever get there with desktops.
Diversity can be a strength, or a weakness. It's good to have diverse
desktops (i dislike behemoths like GNOME and K
I wish I knew about that program earlier. I've had to fork udev's ATA and
SCSI probing code to create equivalent tools for vdev.
-Jude
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 11:22 AM, wrote:
> Didier:
> > Found it. Synaptic is great. Describes it as an SCSI CLI. Well done
> > since hotplug keys and even
Didier:
> Found it. Synaptic is great. Describes it as an SCSI CLI. Well done
> since hotplug keys and even sata drivers use the SCSI API.
>
> Didier
>
> Le 13/02/2015 16:43, Hartmut Figge a écrit :
> > Didier Kryn:
> >> Le 13/02/2015 15:28, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :
> >>> BTW, there
Didier:
> Le 13/02/2015 15:28, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :
> > BTW, there is more than one way to set up (for the local admin)
> > meaningful /dev-names. And if you don't want to bother with any /dev
> > nane, you can (manually) check with "sg_mag -x -i" to see which device
> > is which. Regards,
Found it. Synaptic is great. Describes it as an SCSI CLI. Well done
since hotplug keys and even sata drivers use the SCSI API.
Didier
Le 13/02/2015 16:43, Hartmut Figge a écrit :
Didier Kryn:
Le 13/02/2015 15:28, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :
BTW, there is more than one way to set up (f
Didier Kryn:
>
>Le 13/02/2015 15:28, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :
>> BTW, there is more than one way to set up (for the local admin)
>> meaningful /dev-names. And if you don't want to bother with any /dev
>> nane, you can (manually) check with "sg_mag -x -i" to see which device
>> is which. Regard
Le 13/02/2015 15:28, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :
BTW, there is more than one way to set up (for the local admin)
meaningful /dev-names. And if you don't want to bother with any /dev
nane, you can (manually) check with "sg_mag -x -i" to see which device
is which. Regards, /Karl Hammar
Dea
Didier:
> Le 12/02/2015 17:58, Jude Nelson a écrit :
> > >But, for a desktop, udev, eudev, or vdev is mandatory.
> >
> > Is it? A lot of applications need libudev, but if I can get
> > libudev-compat to generate the requisite information from sysfs and a
> > static dev, I'll spring for that inst
Le 12/02/2015 17:58, Jude Nelson a écrit :
>But, for a desktop, udev, eudev, or vdev is mandatory.
Is it? A lot of applications need libudev, but if I can get
libudev-compat to generate the requisite information from sysfs and a
static dev, I'll spring for that instead of having it depend o
p3.fr wrote:
From: Didier Kryn
To: Steve Litt , dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:37:11 +0100
Steve I am sure your words go beyond your thoughts :-) .
Everybody needs a computer today and mos
Isaac Dunham wrote:
> Or just:
> apt-get install icewm
>
> Comes up and works *right* out of the box, though it might not look
> like everyone's first choice (the default theme is rather gray.)
>
> You can add shortcut keys in ~/.icewm/keys:
> key "Shift+Print" scrot
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:01:15PM -0500, Gravis wrote:
> install IceWM? but-but-but it's C++, so it's large and bloated,
> right? right??? ???_???
Bloated? IceWM?
Absolutely...*if* you're comparing it to twm, jwm, or a few other such
window managers.
Here, it's +3911k installed, including esoun
install IceWM? but-but-but it's C++, so it's large and bloated,
right? right??? ಠ_ಠ
--Gravis
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:30:58AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 07:33:51 +0200
>> Martijn Dekkers wrote:
>>
>> > Whilst I am s
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:30:58AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 07:33:51 +0200
> Martijn Dekkers wrote:
>
> > Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I
> > don't think we will ever get there with desktops.
>
> Just for fun, try Openbox with custom k
Hey, Steve! Sorry about the "tome" but it is an interesting and long-winded
subject.
“I agree that use of C has lessened, and that less of us understand C
today. I disagree that this is necessarily the cause of the problem.”
I'm afraid that is where we differ, Steve, at least in the overall pic
Hey Guys, I would love to have a dispute about languages, but I
don't think it's in the scope of this mailing list. Do you? Excuse
me for having fed it.
Didier
Le 12/02/2015 21:07, Jude Nelson a
écrit :
I tend to use C, C with C++ S
I tend to use C, C with C++ STL containers (I hesitate to call it "C++"),
and Python pretty regularly. I'd use Python more often if (1) its
multi-threading wasn't so terrible (GIL, anyone?), (2) the VM did basic
static analysis, like verifying that I didn't use variable before
initializing it, and
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 02:51:34PM -0500, william moss wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 02/12/2015 01:42 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 11:25:46AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> I have been programming in C
> >> from the beginning
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256
On 02/12/2015 01:42 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 11:25:46AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> ...
>>
>> I have been programming in C
>> from the beginning of the 80's and loved it, but I think C++ is
>> wrong by design (personal though
Bro why do you have to do me like that?
Cmon.
--- k...@in2p3.fr wrote:
From: Didier Kryn
To: Steve Litt , dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:37:11 +0100
Steve I am sure your words go beyond you
I now know how Russians feel about the fall of their country.
--- usspookslovesyste...@muchomail.com wrote:
From: "Usspookes Lovesystemd"
To: "Clarke Sideroad"
Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: T
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:42:07AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:25:46 +0100
> Didier Kryn wrote:
>
> > Same kind of dislike towards network-manager. This is the first
> > package I use to remove after installing Debian. The reason: I don't
> > know really what it does
Absolutly agree 100+74 percent.
--- hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
From: Hendrik Boom
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:42:44 -0500
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 11:25:46AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
...
&
--- clarke.sider...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Clarke Sideroad
To: "dng@lists.dyne.org"
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:35:36 -0500
IMHO Linux has not lost its way but most of the Distros have.
Back when I dis
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 11:25:46AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
...
>
> I have been programming in C
> from the beginning of the 80's and loved it, but I think C++ is
> wrong by design (personal thought), although I have no choice but to
> use programs written in that language, as well as Perl, Pytho
Seconded!
--- k...@in2p3.fr wrote:
From: Didier Kryn
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:25:46 +0100
Agreed, Martijn. I know others doing like you. This makes full sense.
But there are a
IMHO Linux has not lost its way but most of the Distros have.
Back when I discovered Linux and the Linux Desktop I was like a fat kid
at the Free Candy Store.
I'd read about something find it slightly interesting or think I might
be able to use it in the future and add it to my installation.
on TK and ncurses too) by "depreciating" things.
As if they have a right to do this.
No more being lead by the nose like a bull with a ring please.
Fork it all.
--- n...@n0nb.us wrote:
From: Nate Bargmann
To: "T.J. Duchene"
Cc: Devuan project
Subject: Re: [Dng] John Goerzen ask
The following is for debian-like distro:
http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-wifi-roaming-with-wpa-supplicant/
Then you can use the method of Isaac and write manually your
configuration file, or use wpa_gui, which integrates a lot of tools to
help you, like scanning the wifi stations, detect
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:42:07AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:25:46 +0100
> Didier Kryn wrote:
>
> > Same kind of dislike towards network-manager. This is the first
> > package I use to remove after installing Debian. The reason: I don't
> > know really what it does
Steve I am sure your words go beyond your thoughts :-) .
Everybody needs a computer today and most people aren't system
hackers or even can write programs. They are not idiots for that reason.
And, as you know, there are also idiots amongst system hackers, like
someones Devuan wants t
Am 12.02.2015 um 10:30 schrieb Jaromil:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he
>> faces in Jessie:
>>
>> http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie
>
> thanks for this
Here is /etc/network/interfaces:
# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback
allow-hotplug eth0
iface eth0 inet dhcp
# Wifi interface:
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet manual
wpa-roam /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
# Default name given by wpa_supplicant
> It must be perfectly doable to have a linux desktop without systemd
and policykit, and also without dbus. I am sorry for the guy who gently
proposes to maintain dbus on devuan, but I would like if its installation
was optionnal, because I would like to see how it can work without it.
Dbus ma
On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:17:36 -0600
"T.J. Duchene" wrote:
> "John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from
> systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that
> various aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least
> more opaque than in the pas
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:54:26 +0100
Patrick Erdmann wrote:
> On 12.02.2015 15:35, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 06:21:00 +
> > KatolaZ wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 07:33:51AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> >>
> >> [cut]
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Whilst I am still utterly amaze
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:42:07AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:25:46 +0100
> Didier Kryn wrote:
>
> > Same kind of dislike towards network-manager. This is the first
> > package I use to remove after installing Debian. The reason: I don't
> > know really what it does
On 12.02.2015 15:35, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 06:21:00 +
> KatolaZ wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 07:33:51AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
>>
>> [cut]
>>
>>>
>>> Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers
>>> are, I don't think we will ever get there w
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:25:46 +0100
Didier Kryn wrote:
> Same kind of dislike towards network-manager. This is the first
> package I use to remove after installing Debian. The reason: I don't
> know really what it does and how, but it goes in the middle of my
> way. I am well off with ifplu
> Well said KatolaZ. If they want eye-candy and software that
> incorporates human confusion, they should use Windows or Mac. For the
> person who hasn't resigned himself to being an idiot, Linux has
> Openbox, Windowmaker, LXDE, and a whole bunch of other straightforward
> user interfaces.
>
>
For
> Just for fun, try Openbox with custom key-combos, including an easy to
> hit key-combo to run dmenu. You might like to customize dmenu so its
> menu displays down the screen instead of across the top (-L).
>
> Do these things and you just might like Linux desktopping again.
>
>
Never had an issue
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 06:21:00 +
KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 07:33:51AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> >
> > Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers
> > are, I don't think we will ever get there with desktops.
> >
>
> Agree. That's exactly
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 07:33:51 +0200
Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I
> don't think we will ever get there with desktops.
Just for fun, try Openbox with custom key-combos, including an easy to
hit key-combo to run dmenu. You might like
To me the issue is independent of the source language used. A popular
object of criticism is polkit. For fun I took a look at the polkit man
page on this Sid machine and while I have a general idea of what it
does, it's overkill for my single user machine. While it's likely that
it solves some e
Agreed, Martijn. I know others doing like you. This makes full sense.
But there are also people, like me, who are fans of DIY, and have
fun assembling things to obtain a nice working Linux desktop (I also
install and manage servers). It takes some time, but it is (was?)
perfectly doabl
dear Nate,
On Wed, 11 Feb 2015, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he
> faces in Jessie:
>
> http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie
thanks for this and your ramblings, very nice re
On 02/12/2015 09:21 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
Agree. That's exactly why, IMHO, we should focus on what GNU/Linux
does better, and refrain from gladly and blindly embracing the last
miscarriage-piece-of-software "for the good of the large masses of
desktop users".
One solution is to clearly segment di
Agree. That's exactly why, IMHO, we should focus on what GNU/Linux
> does better, and refrain from gladly and blindly embracing the last
> miscarriage-piece-of-software "for the good of the large masses of
> desktop users". Simply put, there are no large masses of desktop
> users, and IMHO never wi
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 07:33:51AM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
[cut]
>
> Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I
> don't think we will ever get there with desktops.
>
Agree. That's exactly why, IMHO, we should focus on what GNU/Linux
does better, and refrain fr
links added on my systemd vault in the philosophy and architecture section :
http://neofutur.net/systemd-vault
I keep adding interesting and related links ( and dependency graphs ),
please all feel free to ping me on irc #debianfork or #rootslinux when
you find somehting that should be added on t
Nice post, thanks!
My €0.02 - About the time that MS introduced "Software Assurance" (2002 or
so?) I headed up a team to develop an "Enterprise Linux Desktop", and we
had great success. Although we didn't manage to fully execute on our
mission (deploy to 10.000 workstations for organization I was
"John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from
systemd. While many here may not necessarily agree, I do agree that various
aspects of the system have become, if not complex, at least more opaque
than in the past.”
You're right. I think the problems, and frankly systemd as w
John weighs in with a followup:
http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9304-reactions-to-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-and-the-value-of-simplicity
- Nate
--
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."
Ham radio, Linux, bikes, an
uot;depreciated" features, or removed things.
Our house is being destroyed, ON PURPOSE, beneath us.
Devuan needs to become the rock that linux once was.
It needs to HALT "development".
--- christoph.lechleit...@iteg.at wrote:
From: Christoph Lechleitner
To: usspookslovesyste..
I'd like the old linux back too, but it won't happen.
Devuan has allready rejected the Bastille Linux hardening script because it is
"old" (A "decade" out of date) (Really 2012 was the last update, because it was
completed)
The Devuan people suffer from the same mental illness that the rest of th
punished.
--- n...@n0nb.us wrote:
From: Nate Bargmann
To: Devuan project
Subject: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, "Has modern Linux lost its way?"
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 10:25:20 -0600
John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he
faces in Jessie:
http://changelog.
John is a long-time Debian developer who opines on the complexity he
faces in Jessie:
http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie
John clearly states that he believes the problems are distinct from
systemd. While many here may not necessarily
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