Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods

2011-06-15 Thread Kevin Venzke
Hi Juho, I have to trim this due to being short on time. --- En date de : Mar 14.6.11, Juho Laatu juho4...@yahoo.co.uk a écrit : If the answer is no or almost never, and I'm the only nutty voter that wants to vote ACB, lose nothing, maybe gain, with everyone else voting sincerely,

Re: [EM] C//A (was: Remember Toby)

2011-06-15 Thread Kevin Venzke
Hi Juho, --- En date de : Mar 14.6.11, Juho Laatu juho4...@yahoo.co.uk a écrit : The explanation may not be not much more complex. It is the strategy where I say MinMax is more complicated and, more importantly, hard to grasp. I recommend sincere voting. Teaching multiple

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods KM

2011-06-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Kevin Venzke wrote: Hi Kristofer, --- En date de : Lun 13.6.11, Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com a écrit : If you want something that deters burial strategy, how about what I called FPC? Each candidate's penalty is equal to the number of first-place votes for those who beat him

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods JQ

2011-06-15 Thread Kevin Venzke
Hi Jameson, --- En date de : Mar 14.6.11, Jameson Quinn jameson.qu...@gmail.com a écrit : [start quote] Of course, this causes favorite betrayal strategy, because you may care more about giving a penalty than about helping your honest favorite. And this strategy is obvious enough that I think

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods KM

2011-06-15 Thread Kevin Venzke
Hi Kristofer, --- En date de : Mer 15.6.11, Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com a écrit : I guess that anything else that does something similar would have a similar advantage. FPC has some problems, though, as Jameson Quinn pointed out. It is possible to reduce the compromise

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods KM edit

2011-06-15 Thread Kevin Venzke
Edit: --- En date de : Mer 15.6.11, Kevin Venzke step...@yahoo.fr a écrit : I am not sure I am able to follow this. In the first paragraph, if Y is the CW, you can't have an XYZX cycle created by X voters. I just realized you're not talking about a cycle but a score order. Also am I

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods

2011-06-15 Thread Juho Laatu
On 15.6.2011, at 14.23, Kevin Venzke wrote: Hi Juho, I have to trim this due to being short on time. Thanks, compact opinions are always a good approach. In margins (and maybe in other variants too) ties should not carry any other additional meaning but that the voter didn't support XY

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods KM

2011-06-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Kevin Venzke wrote: Hi Kristofer, --- En date de : Mer 15.6.11, Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com a écrit : I guess that anything else that does something similar would have a similar advantage. FPC has some problems, though, as Jameson Quinn pointed out. It is possible to reduce

[EM] Covering , Ranked Pairs, Beatpath, and River

2011-06-15 Thread fsimmons
If we measure defeat strength of A over B, primarily by whether or not A covers B, and secondarily by the number of winning votes, we get new versions of Ranked Pairs, River, and Beatpath. These new versions retain all of the best properties of their winning votes versions, while always

[EM] Best use of two bit ballots?

2011-06-15 Thread fsimmons
So far SODA seems to be the best use of one bit ballots, i.e. the Plurality style ballots which have just one bubble to the right of each name. What is the best way to use two bit ballots, i.e. ballots that have two bubbles to the right of each name? Election-Methods mailing list - see

Re: [EM] Covering , Ranked Pairs, Beatpath, and River

2011-06-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: If we measure defeat strength of A over B, primarily by whether or not A covers B, and secondarily by the number of winning votes, we get new versions of Ranked Pairs, River, and Beatpath. These new versions retain all of the best properties of their winning votes

Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots?

2011-06-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: So far SODA seems to be the best use of one bit ballots, i.e. the Plurality style ballots which have just one bubble to the right of each name. What is the best way to use two bit ballots, i.e. ballots that have two bubbles to the right of each name? Two-bit ballots

Re: [EM] Covering , Ranked Pairs, Beatpath, and River

2011-06-15 Thread fsimmons
- Original Message - From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [EM] Covering , Ranked Pairs, Beatpath, and River To: fsimm...@pcc.edu Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: If we measure defeat strength of A over B,

Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots?

2011-06-15 Thread fsimmons
- Original Message - From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:41 pm Subject: Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots? To: fsimm...@pcc.edu Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: So far SODA seems to be the best use of one bit ballots,

Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots?

2011-06-15 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: Which interpretation would be least confusing for the voter? Suppose, for example we have [name] (1) (2) What is the most natural interpretation for the voter that doesn't read the instructions? Either a Range ballot where greatest circle filled in counts (so

Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots?

2011-06-15 Thread Dave Ketchum
On Jun 15, 2011, at 5:12 PM, fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: - Original Message - From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:41 pm Subject: Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots? To: fsimm...@pcc.edu Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com fsimm...@pcc.edu wrote: So far

Re: [EM] Best use of two bit ballots?

2011-06-15 Thread Jameson Quinn
DYN uses two bits, for different things. Filling in both approve and do not delegate beside a given candidate is synonymous with approve, so it's not actually a full two bits, but it's still a pretty good system. Still, I have to say, I think that SODA beats it for simplicity, and if simplicity is

Re: [EM] Defensive strategy for Condorcet methods KM

2011-06-15 Thread Kevin Venzke
Hi Kristofer, Quick one: --- En date de : Mer 15.6.11, Kristofer Munsterhjelm km_el...@lavabit.com a écrit : I haven't tested FPC (since my reimplementation of JGA's strategy ideas was done before I moved to a more modular design for Quadelect), but as far as I recall, the really standout

Re: [EM] C//A (was: Remember Toby)

2011-06-15 Thread Dave Ketchum
On Jun 15, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Juho Laatu wrote: On 15.6.2011, at 14.46, Kevin Venzke wrote: It's better if explaining the method's rules is enough (or close) to understand the strategy. ... No, I am (almost) saying that if you have to explain the strategy separately then that's bad. I think