Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

:-) On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 2:01 AM, meekerdb wrote: > "EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY" > -- T.H. White , * > The Once and Future King * > > On 1/19/2014 10:27 PM, Stephen Paul King wr

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

“EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY” -- T.H. White , /The Once and Future King / On 1/19/2014 10:27 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: No! This is not unknown. I am cobbling ideas together, sure,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:13:22PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 7:09 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >That's not the definition. A rational agent is someone who always > >chooses the optimal course of action, not that there might be a reason > >for it. > > Isn't "being optimal" a reason? >

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

No! This is not unknown. I am cobbling ideas together, sure, think about it! What are we thinking? If the UD implements or emulates all computations then it implements all worlds, ala Kripke. That would include all models of self-consistent theories. On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:22 AM, meekerdb wro

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 10:01 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Exactly, what about all the models of all the worlds that follow different axioms? Those can possibly exist, thus they must. "What is not impossible, is compulsory!" Did you just make that up? :-) Brent -- You received this message because yo

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/19/2014 7:09 PM, Russell Standish wrote: That's not the definition. A rational agent is someone who always chooses the optimal course of action, not that there might be a reason for it. Isn't "being optimal" a reason? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the G

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/19/2014 4:40 PM, LizR wrote: One problem, surely, in real life is not knowing what the other person's "utility function" is? So someone may behave apparently irrationally - e.g. giving away money - because their utility function involves making themselves feel good, or getting a reward in

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear Brent, Exactly, what about all the models of all the worlds that follow different axioms? Those can possibly exist, thus they must. "What is not impossible, is compulsory!" On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 12:55 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 4:18 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 20 January 2014 10:3

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 4:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 10:39, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/19/2014 1:26 PM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 08:56, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/18/2014 7:38 PM, LizR wrote: Or it could be be

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 3:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 19, 2014, at 3:31 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in the axioms, which is the case for elementary arithmetic. But what does "believe in th

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 01:40:45PM +1300, LizR wrote: > One problem, surely, in real life is not knowing what the other person's > "utility function" is? So someone may behave apparently irrationally - e.g. > giving away money - because their utility function involves making > themselves feel good,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

One problem, surely, in real life is not knowing what the other person's "utility function" is? So someone may behave apparently irrationally - e.g. giving away money - because their utility function involves making themselves feel good, or getting a reward in heaven, or they want to show off how g

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 January 2014 06:38, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > We can logically conceive them. Imagine a dead corpse. You can easily > conceive that he is not conscious. Now, animate the dead corpse so that it > behaves like he was alive, but keep conceiving that it is unconscious, a > bit like an actor in a

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 January 2014 10:39, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 1:26 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 20 January 2014 08:56, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 1/18/2014 7:38 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent >>> them. >>> >>> Why would that make it effective,

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On Jan 19, 2014, at 3:31 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in the axioms, which is the case for elementary arithmetic. But what does "believe in the axioms" mean. Do we really believe we

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 02:34:08PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 1:17 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >> > >If a rational agent can compute its utility to determine its next > >course of action, then so can any observer with access to the same > >environmental information. > > > >Its got noth

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 02:37:25PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 2:14 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >Absolutely. As I said to Liz, being irrational is sometimes the best > >way to get ahead. > > So if you define rational as always making the best move to get > ahead you are trapped in a co

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Bruno, let me use simple words (you seem to overcomplicate my input). What IS the *'mind'* you PRESERVE? Then again your ref. to the MW duplication is irrelevant for me: I do not duplicate. (It goes with my answer NO to the doctor). I am more than knowable within today's inventory. I find 'mindcon

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/19/2014 2:14 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Absolutely. As I said to Liz, being irrational is sometimes the best way to get ahead. So if you define rational as always making the best move to get ahead you are trapped in a contradiction - which comes from starting with a poor definition of "r

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/19/2014 1:17 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:42:51PM -0500, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Russell Standish wrote: Rational agents are entirely predictable. Rational agents are entirely deterministic but that does NOT mean they're predictable.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/19/2014 2:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: Or computing the winning outcome takes too long, so it is better to make some decision rather than none at all. Think Chess with a clock. Which means it is rational to make an arbitrary/random choice between those that appear equally good. It woul

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:58:43PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Russell, > > I agree that your model here is "theoretical" and does NOT apply to the > actual reality of decision making organisms such as humans. My comments DO > apply to the real world. > > Rational agent theory properly applie

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:48:35PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/18/2014 9:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >BTW did you mean irrational unpredicatibility? Rational > >unpredictability is an oxymoron. > > "Why did you do that?" > "I wanted to be unpredictable." > "Why did you want to be unpredicta

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/19/2014 12:50 PM, LizR wrote: In practice we have over time relied more and more on the defence that the person concerned couldn't help what they did because of various conditions that aren't their fault (e.g. genetic or due to illnesses or maltreatment), and we even have the science to ba

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, Correct. If you have the winning strategy in a game of checkers doesn't really matter whether your opponent can predict it or not, you still will win. In many situations if your opponent can predict you will win he won't e.g. fire the first nuke. So being predictable is advantageous in m

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Bruno, To answer your questions sequentially. I don't see any way "the arithmetical true relations" compute or emulate anything. They just sit there motionless and nothing happens. You haven't explained how motion arises from non-motion and no one else here understands that either. Reality is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:56:47PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/18/2014 9:41 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > >No, I'm not. Rational agents are entirely predictable. They always > >choose the best course of action, or fail to make a choice at > >all ("it does not compute!"). They cannot behave unpred

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/18/2014 10:03 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 07:19:37AM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Russell, Yes, I'm familiar with that and just posted a journal reference to it. But it's an incorrect understanding. What is really important here is RATIONAL UNpredictability, not IRra

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Russell, I agree that your model here is "theoretical" and does NOT apply to the actual reality of decision making organisms such as humans. My comments DO apply to the real world. Rational agent theory properly applies to only extremely limited and non-representative cases in the real world.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/18/2014 9:41 PM, Russell Standish wrote: No, I'm not. Rational agents are entirely predictable. They always choose the best course of action, or fail to make a choice at all ("it does not compute!"). They cannot behave unpredictably. Why not. Not having one's behavior predictable by other

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear Brent, Consider the Virtual Machine. A an algorithm that emulated hardware for another algorithm to run on. On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/19/2014 4:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:27, LizR wrote: > > On 18 January 2014 17:16, meekerd

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/18/2014 9:33 PM, Russell Standish wrote: BTW did you mean irrational unpredicatibility? Rational unpredictability is an oxymoron. "Why did you do that?" "I wanted to be unpredictable." "Why did you want to be unpredictable." "So my opponent cannot possibly anticipate my move." Sounds rati

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 4:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 17:16, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/17/2014 5:40 PM, LizR wrote: But apparently the brain has a lot to do with those computations in Platonia, c.f.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 1:26 PM, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 08:56, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/18/2014 7:38 PM, LizR wrote: Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent them. Why would that make it effective, though? After all we also

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:28:21AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > >Another take is : http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0403031 > > > >Deriving laws from ordering relations > > > > That is very good, as Cox approach in general except for a lack o

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in the axioms, which is the case for elementary arithmetic. But what does "believe in the axioms" mean. Do we really believe we can *always* add one more? I find it doubtful.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 January 2014 08:56, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/18/2014 7:38 PM, LizR wrote: > > Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent >> them. >> >> Why would that make it effective, though? After all we also invented > fairy tales, and conspiracy theories, and religion, and..

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 08:03:31AM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: > > Russell, > > Thanks for your answer. But I am having trouble seeing the link > between doing something stupid and randomness. Are you implying > randomness is necessary for stupidity or making errors? How do you choose an irrationa

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:42:51PM -0500, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > > Rational agents are entirely predictable. > > > Rational agents are entirely deterministic but that does NOT mean they're > predictable. It would only take you a few m

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 08:38:59AM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Russell, > > No, rational agents are NOT "entirely predictable". And the definition of a > 'rational agent' is not someone who always makes the "best choice". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_agent > > First of all the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 20 January 2014 08:00, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > >> > nobody would buy an argument of a lawyer saying that his client is not >> guilty, because his client is just a bunch of particles obeying to the SWE. > > > I would buy the argument that m

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 20 January 2014 03:03, Jason Resch wrote: > Could an uploaded brain running on a deterministic computer act > irrationally or creatively? (assuming it's entire source code was open > source and it had no access to enviromental randomness) > According to comp it could, because it's equivalent

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear Bruno, On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > > You wrote: > "Physics emerges from the FPI on UD*. It is an open question if there is > a winner program, but empirically we can bet that the winner, if

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Bruno, Forgive a small cherry-picking. You wrote: "It does not necessarily make the physical into a mathematical structure. It makes the whole coupling consciousness/physicalness into an arithmetical internal phenomenon." Can the "arithmetic internal phenomenon" be emulated or mapped fai

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Bruno, On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2014, at 17:54, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Bruno, > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 17 Jan 2014, at 20:38, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> >> >> You argue that my stipu

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Jan 2014, at 01:48, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:04 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb > wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Bruno, How do you deal with the fact that there are more than one self-consistent theory where those theories contradict each other? The example is where one theory takes the continuum hypothesis as true and another takes it as false. On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Bruno, On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2014, at 22:52, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > I will write it again. Block Universes are an incoherent idea. It only > seems to work because we imagine tem as existing out there and subject to > our inspection from

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/19/2014 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I also find it unlikely that the subst level is above the quantum level. Or at least I think that if it's at the quantum level then we can guarantee that the duplication arguments would work (assuming we could duplicate objects at that level, which we c

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear Bruno, Thank you for writing this remark! It is very helpful. I could see where there could be some debate on the constructability claim, as the set of all programs in L could be infinite and thus the lexicographic ordering would be a supertask in that case, but that can be ignored for now.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/18/2014 7:38 PM, LizR wrote: Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent them. Why would that make it effective, though? After all we also invented fairy tales, and conspiracy theories, and religion, and...) And those fairy tales were effective too - up to a

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 19 Jan 2014, at 03:39, LizR wrote: > > It would seem that "sufficiently advanced technology" will eventually be > able to detect all the neural correlates of consciousness. > > > Betting on some theory. Betting on some substitution lev

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > nobody would buy an argument of a lawyer saying that his client is not > guilty, because his client is just a bunch of particles obeying to the SWE. I would buy the argument that mass murderer Charles Manson is the way a bunch of parti

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 18 Jan 2014, at 10:09, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb wrote: But where does it exist? X has to be conscious of a location, a physics, etc. If all this is the same as where I exist, then it is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 18 Jan 2014, at 22:29, LizR wrote: On 19 January 2014 05:54, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Dear Bruno, I do not claim that UDA is "flawed". I claim it is incomplete and based on a false premise. The problem is the assumption that one can reason as if the physical world does not exist and d

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 17 Jan 2014, at 23:24, John Mikes wrote: Stathis and List: from time to time it is useful to recall what we are thinking behind 'words'. Is the 'brain' as used in this exchange indeed 'brainfunction'? (ref. to "functionalism vs computationalism") To 'preserve mind' begs the question how

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > Rational agents are entirely predictable. Rational agents are entirely deterministic but that does NOT mean they're predictable. It would only take you a few minutes to write a program to look for the first even number greater than 2 th

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

On 17 Jan 2014, at 22:59, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 19:04, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The body does not produces consciousness, it only make it possible for consciousness to forget the "higher self", and

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 17 Jan 2014, at 23:04, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing machine and you would preserve the mind. This would not be possible if there is non-computable physics in the brain, Just to cla

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 17:16, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 5:40 PM, LizR wrote: But apparently the brain has a lot to do with those computations in Platonia, c.f. anesthetic. Notice that I'm not a disciple of Platonia. Me neither, I am agnostic - but wi

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 19 Jan 2014, at 09:43, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:41:08AM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 19, 2014, at 12:04 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:38:28PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: Russell, What are your thoughts regarding compatibilism

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 18 Jan 2014, at 19:51, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Stephen, I agree with your criticism of Bruno's UDA. It has no explanation for becoming, for anything ever happening. I've also pointed this out. However, this is equally true of block time, which you seem to believe in. In block time there

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 19 Jan 2014, at 05:18, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:38:58PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Russell, I am soo happy, BTW, that you participate in this list! On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Russell Standish >wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 09:08:04PM -0500,

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 18 Jan 2014, at 17:54, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 20:38, Stephen Paul King wrote: You argue that my stipulation of a dualism is a violation of Occam's razor, ala Step 8 of UDA. I disagree, Occam

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 19 Jan 2014, at 00:33, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:11:50AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp does not need actual infinities, but it still needs the potential infinity of all finite things (integers, or something). But finitist physicalism Oops! I meant "ultrafini

Re: Sum of all natural numbers = -1/12?

On 18 Jan 2014, at 02:27, LizR wrote: The demonstration that the sum of the positive integers is -1/12 relies on the assumption that the sum of 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 is 1/2 However that is by no means certain. It is 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + etc.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:02, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 4:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Russell, PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will is quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is "irrational". And conversely, just making them det

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 18 Jan 2014, at 01:48, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:04 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing machine and you would preserve the mind. This would not be possible if there is non-com

Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Stephen, Liz, On 18 Jan 2014, at 00:02, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 11:39, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Dear John, I invite your comment on a statement and question: There is not observable difference between "X is non-computable" and "there does not exist sufficient resources to comple

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: Another take is : http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0403031 Deriving laws from ordering relations Kevin H. Knuth (Submitted on 3 Mar 2004) The effect of Richard T. Cox's contribution to probability theory was to generalize Boolean implication am

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, You wrote: "Physics emerges from the FPI on UD*. It is an open question if there is a winner program, but empirically we can bet that the winner, if it exists, can emulate a quantum universal machine. But it might be a qua

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 18 Jan 2014, at 16:23, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Bruno, That's not an 'argument'. You are simply stating an hypothesis without any logical supporting argument. Not at all. I gave you an argument. Computational physics entails comp, and comp entails NON-computational physics by the UDA, so

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

On 18 Jan 2014, at 02:06, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 07:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2014 4:55 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 13 January 2014 04:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: I'm a lump of dumb matter arranged in a special way and I am

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 04:05, meekerdb wrote: On 1/18/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb wrote: But where does it exist? X has to be conscious of a location, a physics, etc. If all this is

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 03:39, LizR wrote: It would seem that "sufficiently advanced technology" will eventually be able to detect all the neural correlates of consciousness. Betting on some theory. Betting on some substitution level. Beware the charlatan. Maybe a p-zombie should be defi

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 18 Jan 2014, at 22:52, Stephen Paul King wrote: I will write it again. Block Universes are an incoherent idea. It only seems to work because we imagine tem as existing out there and subject to our inspection from the outside. As if we are God or something... This very idea is the proble

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:16, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 5:40 PM, LizR wrote: But apparently the brain has a lot to do with those computations in Platonia, c.f. anesthetic. Notice that I'm not a disciple of Platonia. Me neither, I am agnostic - but within comp it is assumed, so while dis

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Russell, No, rational agents are NOT "entirely predictable". And the definition of a 'rational agent' is not someone who always makes the "best choice". First of all there is no such thing as "a best choice", because best choice is a judgement that depends on the value scale of some observer, a

Re: everything list note :)

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: > Mostly lurking here… and have off and on for years > > Love some of the ideas floating here and the discussions; it can flow fast > and furious here… keeping up is like a full-time job lol > > > > Recently from time to time I have been p

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dr. Standish, hello! Now you are corroborating a way, Stephen Wolfram's contention, several years ago, that we need never perform interstellar travel, or SETI searches to locate alien intelligences, simply compute-up their society, physiology, technology, and wham! We have all the information

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Jan 19, 2014, at 2:43 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:41:08AM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 19, 2014, at 12:04 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:38:28PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: Russell, What are your thoughts regarding compatibili

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

A form of dualism between category/class of objects and category/class of representations. Between mind and body. They are not the same thing, as monism would tell us, they are the opposites. On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:40 AM, LizR wrote: > On 19 January 2014 17:05, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >>

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 January 2014 17:05, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > In my thinking the integers are one form of Something. They have an > opposite. The classes of physical systems that can be used to implement > them. 2 apples are an implementation of the number 2. The dynamics of > numbers and the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:41:08AM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: > > > On Jan 19, 2014, at 12:04 AM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > >On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:38:28PM -0600, Jason Resch wrote: > >>Russell, > >> > >>What are your thoughts regarding > >>compatibilism

RE: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 11:23 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hame