Better Than the Chinese Room

On 26 January 2014 01:35, Craig Weinberg > wrote: >> But that doesn't answer the question: do you think (or understand, or >> whatever you think the appropriate term is) that the Chinese Room >> COULD POSSIBLY be conscious or do you think that it COULD NOT POSSIBLY >> be conscious? > > > NO ROOM C

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 16:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > > I try to (have some idea what I am talking about). I just have lost the > desire to explain myself. I made my case already. > Well, OK, fine by me. I didn't see a case made, only a definition / ontological assumption, which I w

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear LizR, I try to (have some idea what I am talking about). I just have lost the desire to explain myself. I made my case already. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 10:24 PM, LizR wrote: > On 26 January 2014 15:43, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >I have no idea, I gave up on such questions as they m

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 15:43, Stephen Paul King wrote: I have no idea, I gave up on such questions as they make bad > assumptions, IMHO. We propose explanations for what we experience with an > understanding that we cannot trust our experiences to be truthful. > Well, it *was* your idea, which is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear LizR, I have no idea, I gave up on such questions as they make bad assumptions, IMHO. We propose explanations for what we experience with an understanding that we cannot trust our experiences to be truthful. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 9:35 PM, LizR wrote: > On 26 January 2014 15:22, Stephe

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 15:22, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 26 January 2014 11:25, Stephen Paul King >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Russell, >>> >>>I agree, this has been pointed out by many. The Schroedinger's >>> equation uses the classical

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 26 January 2014 15:18, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/25/2014 4:37 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 26 January 2014 10:58, meekerdb wrote: > >> Sure. In the case of a star that collapses to a BH the cause is the >> matter which became so compressed that a singularity formed - and then the >> matter disappe

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 4:59 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, PS: The Schwartzchild solution just gives the radius of the event horizon of a non-spinniing black hole. It says nothing about any matter disappearing. In fact it assumes the continual presence of the matter that creates the black hole. No, i

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 4:55 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, You seem to be saying 1. that the matter that enters a black hole through the event horizon warps space as it enters and 2. that then that space warp persists as the matter disappears into the singularity. 1. is of course correct but 2. isn't

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear LizR, On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: > On 26 January 2014 11:25, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Dear Russell, >> >>I agree, this has been pointed out by many. The Schroedinger's >> equation uses the classical concept of time. The Wheeler-de Witt equation >> sums over all

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 4:37 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 January 2014 10:58, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: Sure. In the case of a star that collapses to a BH the cause is the matter which became so compressed that a singularity formed - and then the matter disappeared into it. Th

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, PS: The Schwartzchild solution just gives the radius of the event horizon of a non-spinniing black hole. It says nothing about any matter disappearing. In fact it assumes the continual presence of the matter that creates the black hole. So I don't see your first point ... Edgar On Sat

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, You seem to be saying 1. that the matter that enters a black hole through the event horizon warps space as it enters and 2. that then that space warp persists as the matter disappears into the singularity. 1. is of course correct but 2. isn't. Consider a mass traveling through empty spa

Re: Modal Logic (Part 1: Leibniz)

On 25 January 2014 23:56, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> if p is true (in this world, say) then it's true in all worlds that p is >> true in at least one world. >> >> You need just use a conditional (if). The word asked was "if". >> >> OK? >> > > OK. I think I see. p becomes "if p is true" rather than

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 26 January 2014 10:58, meekerdb wrote: > Sure. In the case of a star that collapses to a BH the cause is the > matter which became so compressed that a singularity formed - and then the > matter disappeared into it. That's why the Schwarzschild metrice is a > vacuum solution, no matter. >

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 11:25, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear Russell, > >I agree, this has been pointed out by many. The Schroedinger's > equation uses the classical concept of time. The Wheeler-de Witt equation > sums over all possible universes and leads to a vanishing of the > classical conce

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 11:18, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > > You lost me. Why are you and others so wedded to local realism? > Because it's the simplest assumption that explains why violations of Bell's inequality are possible, Because it's a lot simpler to construct a local realist on

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

AFAIK that is the first known statement of "quantum suicide" (or "quantum immortality"). If Hoyle wasn't aware of Everett he certainly had similar ideas. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 1/25/2014 1:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 January 2014 09:55, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Strictly speaking, no, time is not a dimension. We define sequences of associated events to be so in our mathematical representations. This is true of all physi

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Russell, I agree, this has been pointed out by many. The Schroedinger's equation uses the classical concept of time. The Wheeler-de Witt equation sums over all possible universes and leads to a vanishing of the classical concept of time. I have pointed to a very nice paper by Kitada and F

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear LizR, I am not arguing that we* canno*t treat "time" (the concept) as if it where a dimension. We are free to built any sort of explanatory model we wish and hope that it is consistent with what we measure. I am saying that we *should* not. Events cannot be said to be "out there" waiting fo

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear LizR, You lost me. Why are you and others so wedded to local realism? "The arguments against realism in QM critically assume "Bell's fourth assumption" - that there is some underlying time asymmetry built into physics. If one throws out this (so far unproven) assumption, it become logica

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 03:53:46PM -0500, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Not at all! A block universe is a static 4 dimensional object. Am I > mistaken in this belief? A "block multiverse" is a word salad, IMHO. > Not at all! The solution of Schroedinger's equation \psi(t) given initial conditions

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Edgar, I try very hard to not conflate mathematical/informal models of what we observe with the content of what we observe. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Stephen, > > Strictly speaking I could agree with that because only the current point > of that dimension

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There must be some cause.

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 09:55, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Strictly speaking, no, time is not a dimension. We define sequences of > associated events to be so in our mathematical representations. > This is true of all physics. It's all mathematical representation (I hope Brent will back me up on th

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Stephen, PPS: Sometimes I get the feeling you just go with the latest scientific breeze? Edgar On Saturday, January 25, 2014 3:55:21 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Edgar, > > Strictly speaking, no, time is not a dimension. We define sequences of > associated events to be so in o

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Stephen, PS: And just because a couple of guys much LESS known than Minkowski claim time isn't a dimension does NOT make it so... Edgar On Saturday, January 25, 2014 3:55:21 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Edgar, > > Strictly speaking, no, time is not a dimension. We define sequ

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 09:53, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > We now know, given the weight of evidence in support of QM, that > Newtonian physics is "wrong", even thought it can be used for making > approximations when we can safely assume that the uncertainty principle and > relativistic effects are n

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Stephen, Strictly speaking I could agree with that because only the current point of that dimension actually exists. See my explanation in detail in my previous post in this thread. However the trace of past time does qualify as a dimension, if you want to define it as such, but that past tra

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 09:53, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > > Umm, I thought that I wrote up a semi-technical argument against the > block universe concept. Maybe you didn't see it. I will try again to make > the case using your remarks below. > Good luck. You need to show why time can't

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Edgar, Strictly speaking, no, time is not a dimension. We define sequences of associated events to be so in our mathematical representations. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Liz, > > Yes, of course time is a dimension but that does NOT imply a block > universe. >

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear LizR, Umm, I thought that I wrote up a semi-technical argument against the block universe concept. Maybe you didn't see it. I will try again to make the case using your remarks below. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:18 PM, LizR wrote: > On 26 January 2014 08:54, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >>

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Liz, Yes, of course time is a dimension but that does NOT imply a block universe. That is because only the present moment of the time dimension actually exists. This simply means the past no longer exists, and the future has never yet existed. Reality exists only in the present moment. Thus if

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 26 January 2014 09:33, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:53 PM, LizR wrote: > >> I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare >> them. I imagine they're rather different. >> > > Lots of things escape definitions. Transcendental attribute by defi

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Liz, Bruno and John, Liz is spot on here. Almost all of the interminable arguments about God are simply because different unstated definitions are being used. God is a matter of definition not of empirical discovery. The only rational definition of God (if anyone needs one) is the universe itse

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:53 PM, LizR wrote: > I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare them. > I imagine they're rather different. > > Lots of things escape definitions. Transcendental attribute by definition: beyond ("trans") what we can reach, climb to ("scandere"),

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:00 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > You attack the straw man, again. >> > > Billions of people believe in this "straw man" , and that is exactly why > using the word "God" is totally irresponsible if you're not talking

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 26 January 2014 08:54, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Either way the concept of a block universe is one of the most mind >> blowingly moronic ideas anyone ever came up with. It reminds me of the >> ideas me and my buddies used to come up with in Jr. High School just for >> laughs but which no on

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Edgar, Ah, we disagree on a few more things... On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Stephen, > > Agreed. I suspect I'd be literally burned at the stake for my scientific > heresies by some here if they had a chance! > > But I find it strange you'd say "that so far I

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare them. I imagine they're rather different. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 26 January 2014 07:25, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > At least for a spherically symmetric black hole, the GR solution indicates > that the time dimension becomes the radial dimension of the black hole. > Thus time vanishes inside the event horizon of a spherical black hole. > If time becomes the

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Edgar, On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Brent, > > I have answered this several times but apparently it didn't register. > > P-time is the time IN WHICH everything that can be measured is computed. > Per observer (defined abstractly and not necessarily human)? A bu

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You attack the straw man, again. > Billions of people believe in this "straw man" , and that is exactly why using the word "God" is totally irresponsible if you're not talking about a intelligent conscious being who created the universe. >

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/25/2014 5:29 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > >> Brent, >> >> We have to be careful to be precisely accurate here. >> >> 1. The structure of a black hole is not just a singularity inside an >> event horizon. The entire interior of a black hole is

Re: A theory of dark matter...

The best example of what I am referring to is the propagation of EM waves thru a layer where attenuation is dominant. Empirically the EM waves leave the layer at the same instant that they enter. That is a well known near field effect. You might read up on near field scanning microscopes where inst

Re: 1/2 step 0 (was Re: Tegmark's New Book)

Bruno, Once again a summary of my computational universe: The fundamental level of reality consists of pure abstract computationally evolving information in the LOGICAL (not physical, not dimensional) space or presence of reality. What exists here is NOT static arithmetic truth. What exists he

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/25/2014 5:29 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, We have to be careful to be precisely accurate here. 1. The structure of a black hole is not just a singularity inside an event horizon. The entire interior of a black hole is not a singularity. The singularity exists only at the very center o

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/25/2014 3:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And even if they did, why would that cause me to say "no" to the doctor. By the UDA. If you say "yes" to the doctor, physics emerges from all computations, and even plausibly from those who do not stop, which have a higher measure than those which s

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Stephen, Agreed. I suspect I'd be literally burned at the stake for my scientific heresies by some here if they had a chance! But I find it strange you'd say "that so far I have not seen anything original in your proposal". Everyone else here condemns me because my ideas are TOO original! My w

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Brent, I have answered this several times but apparently it didn't register. P-time is the time IN WHICH everything that can be measured is computed. Therefore one CAN NOT measure intervals of p-time because they are prior to measurability (at least so far as I can see). Thus when we try to mea

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Richard, Can you explain in more detail what you mean by electrostatics being instantaneous? EM fields propagate at the speed of light but once established their effects are "instantaneous" because the field is coterminous with whatever it reacts with or has an effect on. Is that what you mean

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:41:30 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On 25 January 2014 00:26, Craig Weinberg > > wrote: > > >> Tell me what you believe so we can be clear: > >> > >> My understanding is that you believe that if the parts of the Chinese > >> Room don't understand Chinese, then

Re: A theory of dark matter...

So how do you explain that gravitational effects escape a black hole. And while you are at it explain how electrostatics are instantaneous. On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Richard, > > No, that's not correct. Gravitation is NOT faster than the speed of light. > Once a gr

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Richard, No, that's not correct. Gravitation is NOT faster than the speed of light. Once a gravitational field is established it is remains there only so long as the mass that produces it is. Remove that mass and the removal of the associated gravitational force propagates at the speed of light

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Brent, > > Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's > experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the > mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There > mu

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, We have to be careful to be precisely accurate here. 1. The structure of a black hole is not just a singularity inside an event horizon. The entire interior of a black hole is not a singularity. The singularity exists only at the very center of a black hole, there is plenty of volume be

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There must be some cause. It's much more reasonable to assume the mass t

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it in > Hoyle's "universalist" way, although ISTM this is implicit in the heuristic > (i.e. the "guy" is the unique and non-simultaneous "owner" of the > experiences in all the pi

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: > > On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body >>> problem, it is better to abandon all prejudices on this. Indeed with com

Re: what is the definition of computation?

On 25 Jan 2014, at 00:03, LizR wrote: On 25 January 2014 00:17, Bruno Marchal wrote: A cruise missile is not a computation. Accroding to comp it is, at least, the result of computations - isn't it? :-) Not in the sense of the computation stopping and given a result. Yes, in the sense th

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it is better to abandon all prejudices on this. Indeed with comp, it is the concrete laptop which appears as an (unconscious prep

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 24 Jan 2014, at 22:26, meekerdb wrote: On 1/23/2014 11:59 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Only the idealized computations of Turing. Computations in my computer always stop. Because you assume that it exists in some ontological sense. That might be possible. My point is that if this was real

Re: Modal Logic (Part 1: Leibniz)

On 24 Jan 2014, at 21:52, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 23:05, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Jan 2014, at 00:01, LizR wrote: On 24 January 2014 00:33, Bruno Marchal wrote: (Later, we will stop asking that all worlds (in the sense given) belongs in the multiverse. We can decide to suppress a

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 25 January 2014 22:21, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 24 Jan 2014, at 19:46, David Nyman wrote: > > On 23 January 2014 21:18, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> The question then arises: Could the intuition of such a "multiplex" of >> random momentary filterings possibly give an adequate account of the >

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 24 Jan 2014, at 21:35, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 2:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > I said "almost". I defined free-will not really by an inability, but by the knowledge of that inability. It doesn't matter, even with that definition your statement below is still utter

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 24 Jan 2014, at 19:46, David Nyman wrote: On 23 January 2014 21:18, Bruno Marchal wrote: The question then arises: Could the intuition of such a "multiplex" of random momentary filterings possibly give an adequate account of the myriad, ordered experiential trajectories of each and eve