Re: What are atheists for?

On 27/04/2017 2:47 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Apr 2017, at 04:19, Bruce Kellett wrote: I was interested to see if you had anything useful to offer. Also, it seems to be a good idea to have a few contrary voices on this list -- otherwise you would be speaking in an echo chamber where every

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 04:45:00PM +0200, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > I can understand how this epstemological model can lead to the > intuition that mathematics is a "by-product" of physics, but I have a > hard time accepting that it is more than an intuition. > > I am not arguing that this is not

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On 27/04/2017 12:45 am, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Bruce Kellett The issue at stake here appears to be whether arithmetic (and mathematics) can be derived form physics, or has to have some non-physical origin. As I said to Bruno a short time ago, the derivation of this

Re: Movie Argument ​

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> ​ > Bruno Marchal (BM) decided to take some Holiday in Helsinki, where BM was > proposed a Washington-Moscow duplication experience. > ​ ​ > Someone asked in Helsinki to BM to make a prediction about where BM would > *feel* to be after t

Re: What are atheists for?

On 4/26/2017 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Maybe I will just ask you this. 1) Do you agree that consciousness is a form of knowledge? 2) that knowable obeys the S4 axioms? S4 = [](A->B) -> ([]A -> []B) K []A->AT []A -> [][]A 4 Then incomple

Re: What are atheists for?

Le 26 avr. 2017 11:21 PM, "Brent Meeker" a écrit : On 4/26/2017 9:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You can't invalidate an argument by invoking your own theory (which seems > to assume that there is some world). Like Quentin said, when a world is > assumed, it is only to get a reductio ad absurdu

Re: What are atheists for?

On 4/26/2017 9:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You can't invalidate an argument by invoking your own theory (which seems to assume that there is some world). Like Quentin said, when a world is assumed, it is only to get a reductio ad absurdum, in the computationalist theoretical frame. I apprec

Re: Weak Materialism versus Physicalism

On 4/26/2017 7:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Apr 2017, at 00:19, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/25/2017 1:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 01:13, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On 4/26/2017 4:39 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Give us the meat of your arguments and I promise to read with an open mind. In my case, I am mostly interested in the first principles that allow you to claim that consciousness emerges from complex interactions between physical entities. I think thi

Re: Weak Materialism versus Physicalism

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:28:20 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Apr 2017, at 00:19, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > > > > On 4/25/2017 1:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> > >> On 25 Apr 2017, at 01:13, Bruce Kellett wrote: > >> > >>> On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote

Re: What are atheists for?

On 4/26/2017 12:32 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 Apr 2017 11:07 p.m., "Brent Meeker" > wrote: On 4/25/2017 1:08 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 Apr 2017 5:15 a.m., "Brent Meeker" mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 4/24/2017 10:02 AM, Dav

Re: What are atheists for?

On 26 Apr 2017, at 11:17, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/25/2017 2:22 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Russell

Re: What are atheists for?

On 26 Apr 2017, at 05:05, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/25/2017 7:19 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 25/04/2017 7:30 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:44, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/24/2017 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Apr 2017, at 13:38, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 23/04/2017 8:52

Re: What are atheists for?

On 26 Apr 2017, at 04:19, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 25/04/2017 7:30 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:44, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/24/2017 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Apr 2017, at 13:38, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 23/04/2017 8:52 pm, Quentin Anciaux wrote: It's you who's beg

Re: What are atheists for?

On 26 Apr 2017, at 01:50, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/25/2017 7:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Brent, I comment the last posts in one post. On 25 Apr 2017, at 07:09, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/23/2017 4:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Apr 2017, at 06:10, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/21

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > On 26/04/2017 9:39 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Bruce Kellett >>> >>> Not at all. Physics does not assume arithmetic or mathematics, it derives >>> them. >>> >>> Give the proof, then. It's "vaporwa

Re: What are atheists for?

On 26 Apr 2017, at 00:49, Brent Meeker wrote: I was off line for several days because my youngest daughter was getting married Saturday and I was hosting relatives who flew in from far away. Nice to tell me. I am happy for your daughter, and that you have no insomnia. Bruno Brent

Re: Weak Materialism versus Physicalism

On 26 Apr 2017, at 00:19, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/25/2017 1:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 01:13, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Russell Standish > wrote: On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 11:49:51AM +0200, Telmo M

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On 26/04/2017 9:39 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Bruce Kellett Not at all. Physics does not assume arithmetic or mathematics, it derives them. Give the proof, then. It's "vaporware science", just like the first principles that explain emergentism. People allude to t

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > On 26/04/2017 7:24 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> On 25 Apr 2017, at 15:03, Bruce Kellett wrote: >>> >>> On 25/04/2017 7:02 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> On 25 Apr 2017, at 03

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On 26/04/2017 7:24 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 15:03, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 25/04/2017 7:02 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:26, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/24/2017 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Apr 2

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On 26/04/2017 7:13 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 15:03, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 25/04/2017 7:02 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:26, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/24/2017 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Apr 2017, at 09:18, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote:

Re: Movie Argument ​

On 25 Apr 2017, at 19:21, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​I use "I" because there is no ambiguity, ​Then prove it, replace "I" with "Bruno Marchal" and see how far "you" get in a world that contains "I" duplicating machines. Bruno Marchal (B

Re: What are atheists for?

On 25 Apr 2017, at 15:26, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 at 5:58 am, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​>> ​​Suppose just for ​​the sake ​of argument that non- physical computations did not exist, how would our physical world be different

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Apr 2017, at 15:03, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On 25/04/2017 7:02 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:26, Brent Meeker wrote: > > On 4/24/2017 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 23 Apr 2017, at 09:18, 'scerir' via Eve

Re: What are atheists for?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:05 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 4/25/2017 7:19 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On 25/04/2017 7:30 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:44, Brent Meeker wrote: > > On 4/24/2017 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 23 Apr 2017, at 13:38, Bruce Kellett wrote:

Re: What are atheists for?

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 4/25/2017 2:22 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Bruce Kellett >> wrote: >>> >>> On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Russell Standish wrote: >

Re: R: Re: What are atheists for?

On 25 Apr 2017, at 15:03, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 25/04/2017 7:02 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 03:26, Brent Meeker wrote: On 4/24/2017 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Apr 2017, at 09:18, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote: "Quentin Anciaux": How can you justify logic

Re: Weak Materialism versus Physicalism

On 25 Apr 2017, at 14:35, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 25/04/2017 6:59 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2017, at 01:13, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Russell Standish > wrote: On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 11:49:51AM +0200, Telmo Mene

Re: What are atheists for?

2017-04-26 9:37 GMT+02:00 David Nyman : > > > On 26 Apr 2017 1:04 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: > > > > On 4/25/2017 10:19 AM, David Nyman wrote: > > > > On 25 Apr 2017 5:15 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: > > > > On 4/24/2017 10:02 AM, David Nyman wrote: > > > > On 24 Apr 2017 7:32 a.m., "Brent Meeke

Re: What are atheists for?

On 26 Apr 2017 1:04 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 4/25/2017 10:19 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 Apr 2017 5:15 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 4/24/2017 10:02 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 24 Apr 2017 7:32 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: I don't think there's any question that non-physical th

Re: What are atheists for?

On 25 Apr 2017 11:49 p.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: I was off line for several days because my youngest daughter was getting married Saturday and I was hosting relatives who flew in from far away. Congratulations! David Brent On 4/25/2017 3:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Bruno (I have to go

Re: What are atheists for?

On 25 Apr 2017 11:07 p.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 4/25/2017 1:08 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 Apr 2017 5:15 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: On 4/24/2017 10:02 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 24 Apr 2017 7:32 a.m., "Brent Meeker" wrote: I don't think there's any question that non-physical th