Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

beings have? How does true > intelligence behave differently than untrue intelligence? If untrue > intelligence can outsmart true intelligence it sure doesn't seem very > untrue to me. > > John K Clark > > Some in AI will say if something is just informationally intellig

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 12:22 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > True intelligence is *experiential intelligence*. > What sort of intelligence do your fellow human beings have? How does true intelligence behave differently than untrue intelligence? If untrue intelligence can outsmart true intelligence

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 6:22:39 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 2:38 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> An alternative is that consciousness (or experientiality - in the >> philosophers' jargon) is intrinsic (more jargon) to matter. A change in >> matter would i

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 22 Nov 2018, at 21:02, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:44 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >In logic, a model is a reality. > > If so then "reality" is a very silly thing and logicians are very silly > people. It is so, as again you would see if

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 2:38 AM Philip Thrift wrote: *> An alternative is that consciousness (or experientiality - in the > philosophers' jargon) is intrinsic (more jargon) to matter. A change in > matter would indeed change consciousness.* > Because a change in matter changes a computation and

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 2:02:55 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > We've observed experimentally that a change in matter changes > consciousness and a change in consciousness changes matter, I don't see how > you could get better evidence than that indicating matter and consciousness

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:44 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: *>In logic, a model is a reality. * > If so then "reality" is a very silly thing and logicians are very silly people. *> A reality is anything which satisfies a theory* > And that is a very silly thing to say. Harry Potter flying on a broom

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 5:54:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 21 Nov 2018, at 15:11, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 21 Nov 2018, at 15:11, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in > Mechanism, and that “matter” is phenomenological. It does not exist in the > base

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in > Mechanism, and that “matter” is phenomenological. It does not exist in the > base ontology. Or f it does, then how could it play a non mecha

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 19 Nov 2018, at 21:50, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 4:54:47 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 15 Nov 20

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 20 Nov 2018, at 00:44, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality. > > I see. No I take that back I don't see. What does that mean, how would things > look different

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Today I am busy. I will answer this at ease later. Have a good day, Bruno > On 20 Nov 2018, at 00:44, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality. > > I see. No I take t

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 5:24:48 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 17 Nov 2018, at 03:58, John Clark > > wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> *> A practical difficulty here is that logicians used the term model like >> painters: the model is

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *> The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality.* > I see. No I take that back I don't see. What does that mean, how would thing s look different if it were the other way around, what if the notion of reality realizes the notion of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 4:54:47 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, Novemb

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 17 Nov 2018, at 03:58, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > A practical difficulty here is that logicians used the term model like > > painters: the model is the reality > > Mathematician can use one part of mathe

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 13 Nov

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *> A practical difficulty here is that logicians used the term model like > painters: the model is the reality* > Mathematician can use one part of mathematics to model another part, for example Descartes found a way for geometry to model

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, Novemb

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 19:14, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 6:27 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> I see precisely ZERO evidence that "phi_u(x, y)" can emulate a machine or > emulate anything a or in fact do anything at all because "phi_u(x, y)" never

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> A model is a

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 6:27 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I see precisely ZERO evidence that "phi_u(x, y)" can emulate a machine >> or emulate anything a or in fact do anything at all because "phi_u(x, y)" >> never changes, not in time and not in space. You wrote "phi_u(x, y)" in >> the above abo

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make >> se

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 13 Nov 2018, at 15:38, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 9:35 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a > >> Turing Machine can't simulate anything or do anything at all without the > >> he

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make > sense, by considering non axiomatisable theory, but that can lead to > confusion, so

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 9:35 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a >> Turing Machine can't simulate anything or do anything at all without the >> help of matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > > *> That is plainly false. If u is a univ

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make > sense, by considering non axiomatisable theory, but that can lead to > confusion, so it is better to avoid this. When a model is seen as a theor

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 10 Nov 2018, at 17:09, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:09 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > Any Turing machine can emulate any Turing complete subset of physics. > > You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a Turing > Ma

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:09 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > Any Turing machine can emulate any Turing complete subset of physics. You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a Turing Machine can't simulate anything or do anything at all without the help of matter that obeys th

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 11:38:51 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 8 Nov 2018, at 14:30, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, Novembe

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:35, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 9:57 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > for consciousness, which needs a relation between a brain, and truth. > > Hallucinations exist. Hallucinations have still a relation with truth (consciousn

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 8 Nov 2018, at 14:30, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 6 Nov 201

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 8:36:17 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 9:57 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > >> *> Alan Turing used his material brain, yes, but that has nothing to do >> with the fact that he gave a definition of computation* [...] >> > > Definitio

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 9:57 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > *for consciousness, which needs a relation between a brain, and truth.* > Hallucinations exist. > > *That needed truth needs also to be independent of the brain.* > Hallucinations are not independent of the brain. > *Information proce

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, Novembe

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Monday,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 17:27, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:05 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > Even “Deep Blue”, the program who win Chess tournaments, would not be > > interestingly described as a bunch of atoms, > > Seems pretty damn interesting to m

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 09:52, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > > wrote: >> >> > If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 00:18, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> >> >> We cannot identify first person notion with third person notion. A subtlety >> is that physics is, eventually, shown to be first person plural, and not >> third person as usually believed

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 5 Nov 2018, at 14:35, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 6:33 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > Experience is manifested by information processing. But experience per se > > is not information processing. > > A car is not "fast" but going fast is what a

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Why not make this point at the conference? You have until November 12 to submit your paper. On 03-11-2018 18:01, John Clark wrote: As long as both are intelligent how could you tell the difference between a conscious AI System and a non-conscious AI System? If you can't then shouldn

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:10 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: *> In the theology of the machine, this is the confusion between* > [... Sorry, I didn't see what you said after that, I fell asleep. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ev

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:05 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *Even “Deep Blue”, the program who win Chess tournaments, would not be > interestingly described as a bunch of atoms,* > Seems pretty damn interesting to me. > *> as it do not lost his identity when run on a different machine.* > Huh? That

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> *> If experience (Galen Straws

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 5 Nov 2018, at 02:56, Martin Abramson wrote: > > Consciousness is a program. Consciousness might be related to a program, but is not a program, that would identify a first person notion with a third person notion, like a glass of bear and its price. > It explores whatever entity it fi

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 23:18, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > It's that experience (not just information) that needs processing to > > produce consciousness. > > A experience is a memory and memory is information s

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

gt; > I strongly suspect that the particular kind of mathematical object that > > minds are is called a lawless choice sequence. > > The lawless choice sequence was invented by the mathematician L.E.J. Brouwer > and he was also the founder of intuitionism, a philosophy of math

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

o the founder of intuitionism, a philosophy of mathematics that > says mathematics is not fundamental is just the product of the human mind. The whole physics is by default a product of the human mind. Brouwer go safer than mechanism, as it go toward subjectivism and even solipsism. > I

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark > > wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result >> of information (only) processin

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:45 PM Brent Meeker wrote: > *I think I would feel better being outsmarted by an unconscious robot > than a conscious robot.* > I wouldn't feel bad if Einstein outsmarted me but if something that was only "pseudo" intelligent did I'd feel pretty stupid. John K Clark >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

From: *Bruno Marchal* mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> We cannot identify first person notion with third person notion. A subtlety is that physics is, eventually, shown to be first person plural, and not third person as usually believed today. That is merely a consequence of your idiosyncratic def

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 3:55:14 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 11/5/2018 1:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/5/2018 1:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift w

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> > I agree with those scientists who that sa

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > I agree with those scientists who that say something isn't truly intelligent unless it is also conscious.

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/5/2018 12:40 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:22 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: /> By "experience", philosophers (like Galen Strawson, Philip Goff) mean that which you have within yourse

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > I agree with those scientists who that say something isn't truly >> intelligent unless it is also conscious. >> > > Then you have no way of knowing if any of your f

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 6:33 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *Experience is manifested by information processing. But experience per > se is not information processing.* > A car is not "fast" but going fast is what a car does. A brain is not a mind but mind is what a brain does. Information processing

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > I agree with those scientists who that say something isn't truly > intelligent unless it is also conscious. > Then you have no way of knowing if any of your fellow human beings are "truly intelligent" because you have no way of knowing if the

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result of > > information (only) processing, > > If? If information is not the thing tha

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 12:23, Philip Thrift wrote: > > On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:02:50 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:49 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >Information processing can ultimately lead to just a type of intelligence: > >pseudo-intelligence: > Artificia

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:22 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> By "experience", philosophers (like Galen Strawson, Philip Goff) mean >> that which you have within yourself right now: the awareness that* [...] >> > > Awareness?

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Consciousness is a program. It explores whatever entity it finds itself within and becomes that creature's awareness of the world. For humans it becomes the identity or soul which responds to anything that affects the organism. It can be uploaded into a data bank but otherwise it dissipates with de

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:22 PM Philip Thrift wrote: *> By "experience", philosophers (like Galen Strawson, Philip Goff) mean > that which you have within yourself right now: the awareness that* [...] > Awareness? But awareness is just another word for consciousness, so when you say "*It's that

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 4:18:48 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > It's that experience (not just information) that needs processing to >> produc*e consciousness*. >> > > A experience is a memory and memory is information so exper

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

cludes argue convincingly with you that it has consciousness.* > I agree completely but it's interesting to note that there are lots and lots of consciousness theories out there on the internet but very few intelligence theories, and none of those consciousness theories are of the slightest

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > It's that experience (not just information) that needs processing to > produc*e consciousness*. > A experience is a memory and memory is information so experience processing is information processing. > But I say there can be unconscious (p

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

In the AI news: *Human brain' supercomputer with 1 million processors switched on for first time* - https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/human-brain-supercomputer-with-1million-processors-switched-on-for-first-time/ *SpiNNaker* *breaks the rules followed by traditional supercomp

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

oice sequence was invented by the mathematician > L.E.J. Brouwer and he was also the founder of intuitionism, a > philosophy of mathematics that says mathematics is not fundamental is > just the product of the human mind. I don't know that I'd go as far as > Brouwer because I

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

gt; I strongly suspect that the particular kind of mathematical object >> that minds are is called a lawless choice sequence.* >> > > The lawless choice sequence was invented by the mathematician L.E.J. > Brouwer and he was also the founder of intuitionism, a philosophy of >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

atics that says mathematics is not fundamental is just the product of the human mind. I don't know that I'd go as far as Brouwer because I think ET of a AI or any mind would eventually come us with something similar to our mathematics, but only because mathematics is the best language

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

I agree of course with Richard Rorty who said that the idea there is a mind that something that is outside the brain/body is one of the worst ideas ever concocted in history. Information is processed in computers with electrons moving in electronic circuits. - pt On Sunday, November 4, 20

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 7:54:19 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result >> of information (only) processing, * >> > > If? If information is not the thing that need

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

I put it to you that artificial general intelligence and artificial consciousness are exactly the same thing. To construct one is to construct the other. Any AGI is going to be able to do anything a human can do, which includes argue convincingly with you that it has consciousness. It might be bl

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems, unless you can show that minds are physical systems. I believe minds are mathematical objects, as are physical systems, and that minds are a particular kind of mathematical object. I strongly suspect that the particular kind of mathem

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift wrote: *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result > of information (only) processing, * > If? If information is not the thing that needs processing to produce intelligence then what is? > then the argument for arithmet

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:02:50 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:49 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> *>Information processing can ultimately lead to just a type of >> intelligence: pseudo-intelligence:* >> *Artificial intelligence isn't synthetic intelligence: It

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:49 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > *>Information processing can ultimately lead to just a type of > intelligence: pseudo-intelligence:* > *Artificial intelligence isn't synthetic intelligence: It's > pseudo-intelligence.* > If you're outsmarted by a pseudo-intelligence how ar

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

, and even then they meant Artificial Consciousness > not Artificial Intelligence. It should have been the other way around. I > think AI is fascinating but AC is a bore because nobody has anything > worthwhile to say about it, and if anybody ever does they're first go

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 1:13 PM Philip Thrift wrote: *>AIM AND SCOPE * I noticed they used the word "consciousness" 8 times but the word intelligence only once, and even then they meant Artificial Consciousness not Artificial Intelligence. It should have been the other way aroun

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 11:01:41 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > As long as both are intelligent how could you tell the difference between > a conscious AI System and a non-conscious AI System? If you can't then > shouldn't you be concentrating on figuring out

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

As long as both are intelligent how could you tell the difference between a conscious AI System and a non-conscious AI System? If you can't then shouldn't you be concentrating on figuring out how intelligence works rather than consciousness? John K Clark -- You received this message b

Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

TOWARDS CONSCIOUS AI SYSTEMS AAAI Spring Symposium, Stanford, CA, March 25 – 27, 2019 http://diid.unipa.it/roboticslab/consciousai/ http://diid.unipa.it/roboticslab/consciousai/http://diid.unipa.it/roboticslab/consciousai/ Paper submission: November 12, 2018 (was November 2, 2018 ) - pt

Re: Strong AI implies MWI

> On 27 May 2018, at 23:57, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 5/27/2018 1:22 AM, smitra wrote: >> This is a physical version of what Bruno has been talking about on this list. >> >> With "strong AI" I mean that any simulation of a person gen

Re: Strong AI implies MWI

> On 27 May 2018, at 10:22, smitra wrote: > > This is a physical version of what Bruno has been talking about on this list. > > With "strong AI" I mean that any simulation of a person generates the mind of > that person, and the subjective state of that person i

Re: Strong AI implies MWI

On 5/27/2018 1:22 AM, smitra wrote: This is a physical version of what Bruno has been talking about on this list. With "strong AI" I mean that any simulation of a person generates the mind of that person, and the subjective state of that person is independent of how that sim

Strong AI implies MWI

This is a physical version of what Bruno has been talking about on this list. With "strong AI" I mean that any simulation of a person generates the mind of that person, and the subjective state of that person is independent of how that simulation is performed. So, what matters is i

Re: Robot passes AI test

explains why she should better not confuse []p and []p & p, despite praying for their equivalence (explicitly so when saying “yes doctor”). Bruno > > >> Robot Passes AI Test >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95aYLmG0wt8 >> <https://w

Re: Robot passes AI test

I have not read the paper yet, but I can't help but think that if you define according to some computational outcome then you have set a goal that you can achieve with computation. LC On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 6:04:20 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > And consciousness? > > > *

Robot passes AI test

And consciousness? *Robot Passes AI Test* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95aYLmG0wt8 http://kryten.mm.rpi.edu/SBringsjord_etal_self-con_robots_kg4_0601151615NY.pdf Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List"

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

> On 28 Feb 2018, at 20:38, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 2:08:43 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 26 Feb 2018, at 18:02, Lawrence Crowell > > wrote: >> >> On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 24 Feb 2018, a

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 2:08:43 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Feb 2018, at 18:02, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 24 Feb 2018, at 00:36, Lawrence Crowell >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, Febr

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

> On 26 Feb 2018, at 18:02, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 24 Feb 2018, at 00:36, Lawrence Crowell > > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:12:32 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 23 Feb 2

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 24 Feb 2018, at 00:36, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > > > On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:12:32 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 23 Feb 2018, at 17:15, Lawrence Crowell >> wrote: >> >> The MH spacetime in

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

> On 24 Feb 2018, at 00:36, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > > > On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:12:32 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 23 Feb 2018, at 17:15, Lawrence Crowell > > wrote: >> >> The MH spacetime in the case of the Kerr metric does permit an observer in >> principle to

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

> On 23 Feb 2018, at 23:15, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/23/2018 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> However though perhaps a spider may exist in a less filtered internal state >>> of being than a mouse, I don't see how it is more conscious. Is an amoeba >>> even more conscious then than a

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:12:32 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 23 Feb 2018, at 17:15, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > The MH spacetime in the case of the Kerr metric does permit an observer in > principle to witness an infinite stream of bits or qubits up to the inner > horizon

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