Oleg Tkachenko wrote:
> I've got this book too, good one, but too TeX-oriented IMO.
True enough that the book in general is TeX- & Metafont-oriented. However, I
thought the chapter on line-breaking was general enough to be very useful to
us.
Victor Mote
Victor Mote wrote:
FYI, I now have the Knuth books "Digital Typography" and the 5-volume
"Computers & Typesetting", and have perused the relevant sections. The h & j
For any who are interested in line-breaking, I highly recommend at least
reading through this material. The book has a lot of oth
FYI, I now have the Knuth books "Digital Typography" and the 5-volume
"Computers & Typesetting", and have perused the relevant sections. The h & j
algorithm that I have been looking for can be found in Chapter 3 of "Digital
Typography". A brief history of line-breaking is included, as well as a
dis
Victor Mote wrote:
> Ek is actually hacking the font shapes. I have seen this or something
> similar done in FrameMaker, which gives the ability to stretch or condense
> glyphs on both the horizontal and vertical axes. However, FrameMaker also
> creates PDFs by generating Postscript code and Disti
2:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: source for hz algorithm
FYI, I received the Seybold Report on Publishing Systems (Vol 22, No. 11) a
few days ago & have read the article on hz-program. The article was
published in 1993, and is pretty print-oriented. If memory serves, this was
before PD
FYI, I received the Seybold Report on Publishing Systems (Vol 22, No. 11) a
few days ago & have read the article on hz-program. The article was
published in 1993, and is pretty print-oriented. If memory serves, this was
before PDF & electronic paper really caught on -- this is important because
the
Rhett Aultman wrote at 29 Jan 2003 10:33:21 -0500:
> Any attempt FOP has at laying rules for layout is going to be
> applying heuristics. It would be interesting to be able to expose
> the heuristics and allow for programmer/user control of them.
> Still, until more of this materializes, I thi
Ralph LaChance wrote:
> I'm puzzled how they can own a patent on an algorithm stated years
> ago and summarized in a european student's thesis. But then I don'w
> know about these things ;-)
I am under the impression that hz-program and pdfTeX were basically
independent efforts, probably with
At 12:51 AM 1/31/2003, you wrote:
I made an inquiry on URW's web site yesterday, and received a response
today. The short story is that what I had inferred from the postings on
other lists is correct: the patent to hz-program is now owned by Adobe, and
is probably the basis for their paragraph-lev
I made an inquiry on URW's web site yesterday, and received a response
today. The short story is that what I had inferred from the postings on
other lists is correct: the patent to hz-program is now owned by Adobe, and
is probably the basis for their paragraph-level formatting in InDesign. So
to su
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 09:54 PM, J.Pietschmann wrote:
Keiron Liddle wrote:
The only drawback is that it constantly needs to find the child layout
manager that applies to a given break...
Well, if there is a min < opt < max, and opt doesn't quite fit,
you have to choose whether to
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 03:20 PM, Rhett Aultman wrote:
This might be semantic nitpicking more than anything, but how can
finding a worse break prove you have the best break? Wouldn't you have
to find all possible breaks and verify that they're "worse"? Also,
just for personal enl
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Peter B. West wrote:
I can't visualise the flow of control here. I presume that the break
(possibility?) is generated at, say, line-area building level.
Yes, a break is only generated where it is necessary
[Is this always based on knowledge of t
Sébastien Aperghis-Tramoni wrote:
> Information about the licenses used by the TeX related softwares
> are available on this page:
>http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/licenses.html
>
> The core of TeX, the files written by Donald Knuth, doesn't seem to
> be covered by a particular
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 09:05 AM, Victor Mote wrote:
BTW, I looked for but did not find licensing information at tug & ctan
licensing information, as well as in my Norman Walsh book "Making TeX
Work".
Does it use a GPL? If it had a compatible licensing scheme, it would
sure
seem to m
Keiron Liddle wrote:
The only drawback is that it constantly needs to find the child layout manager that
applies to a given break...
Well, if there is a min < opt < max, and opt doesn't quite fit,
you have to choose whether to use the wiggle room to the min
or to the max side. This bothers me.
Clay Leeds wrote:
Does the idea that there would be intermediate results mean that a
"human" could determine which is the best to perform the final layout?
I'm thinking of a system similar to how some OCR programs enable the
user to contribute to the process of recognition when the OCR progr
e the equine species (...getting DesCartes before the
horse, or "de cart before the horse"...bad joke)
-Original Message-
From: Clay Leeds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:18 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: source for hz algorithm
Pete
Forgive the response to my own post...
Clay Leeds wrote:
Peter B. West wrote:
Victor Mote wrote:
Peter B. West wrote:
These are interesting and important issues. I had no notion of the HZ
algorithm, but I was dimly aware from my reading as a teenager of the
"rivers" problem, and acutely c
Clay Leeds wrote:
Does the idea that there would be intermediate results mean that a
"human" could determine which is the best to perform the final layout?
I'm thinking of a system similar to how some OCR programs enable the
user to contribute to the process of recognition when the OCR program
Peter B. West wrote:
Victor Mote wrote:
Peter B. West wrote:
These are interesting and important issues. I had no notion of the HZ
algorithm, but I was dimly aware from my reading as a teenager of the
"rivers" problem, and acutely conscious of its distracting effect from
my reading. In my t
ginal Message-
From: Peter B. West [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: source for hz algorithm
Layout sometimes occurs in an environment of known available BPDimension
and IPDimension, sometimes with only one dimension, and some
Keiron Liddle wrote:
True, but I had in mind that any such approach will be built on the fact
that any layout is, in some sense, tentative. Rhett raised the question
some time ago of a means recording (and scoring) intermediate results,
something which will be an essential element of such a so
esday, January 29, 2003 5:10 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: source for hz algorithm
>>
The idea I am working with (of which I have prototype working) is that a break is
after a line. For this break it finds the BPD distance from the top down (flow layout
manager) from the start of the
Oops.
Peter
Rhett Aultman wrote:
I'd meant for him to contact me privately so I could mail him some photocopies and save him the trouble of trying to find copies of the book.
--
Peter B. West [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/
"Lord, to whom shall we go?"
ECTED]
Subject: Re: source for hz algorithm
Layout sometimes occurs in an environment of known available BPDimension
and IPDimension, sometimes with only one dimension, and sometimes with
neither. In the latter cases, the layout process is effectively a probe
to see what the dimensional requirements
t: Re: source for hz algorithm
Rhett,
Discussion of the actual algorithms would be of general interest, I think.
Peter
Rhett Aultman wrote:
> My girlfriend just located both volumes at the University of Central Florida library
>and is bringing them home for me to peruse.
>
> Vic, wh
Peter B. West wrote:
> At this stage, I would tend to think not of
> doing every possible layout, but of following
> the "optimum" values to perform initial layout,
> and then testing the result for "goodness".
> The minimum-maximum range provides the slack -
> within the context of the spec - for
> True, but I had in mind that any such approach will be built on the fact
> that any layout is, in some sense, tentative. Rhett raised the question
> some time ago of a means recording (and scoring) intermediate results,
> something which will be an essential element of such a solution.
>
> A
Victor Mote wrote:
Peter B. West wrote:
These are interesting and important issues. I had no notion of the HZ
algorithm, but I was dimly aware from my reading as a teenager of the
"rivers" problem, and acutely conscious of its distracting effect from
my reading. In my thinking about layout, I
Peter B. West wrote:
> These are interesting and important issues. I had no notion of the HZ
> algorithm, but I was dimly aware from my reading as a teenager of the
> "rivers" problem, and acutely conscious of its distracting effect from
> my reading. In my thinking about layout, I have been con
Sebastian Rahtz (PassiveTeX) would be a good source of information. I
think he tends to hang around on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Btw, URW provide one of the best-known set of free Type1 fonts for linux.
Peter
Victor Mote wrote:
J.Pietschmann wrote:
The TeX-Book has a chapter about this problem. It
J.Pietschmann wrote:
> The TeX-Book has a chapter about this problem. It is available
> as textbook.tex (in TeX, and quite officially). Amazingly, I
> didn't find it on CTAN, but a google search turns up other
> servers (I can send you the 460k compressed source).
I think it is also Volume A of K
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> It is documented in either book 1 or 2 of Digital Typography by (I think!)
> P. Karow, of URW (i.e. the folks behind the Ikarus format (just google
> for URW and Digital Typograhy or Ikarus)). I think it is in book one. The
> books are an absolute 'must have' - but
Rhett,
Discussion of the actual algorithms would be of general interest, I think.
Peter
Rhett Aultman wrote:
My girlfriend just located both volumes at the University of Central Florida library and is bringing them home for me to peruse.
Vic, why don't you email me privately so we can discuss
Victor,
These are interesting and important issues. I had no notion of the HZ
algorithm, but I was dimly aware from my reading as a teenager of the
"rivers" problem, and acutely conscious of its distracting effect from
my reading. In my thinking about layout, I have been conscious of the
nee
Victor Mote wrote:
I have been looking for some time for a source for the HZ (Hermann Zapf)
algorithm which (as I understand) optimizes line breaks for multiple lines,
The TeX-Book has a chapter about this problem. It is available
as textbook.tex (in TeX, and quite officially). Amazingly, I
didn
esday, January 28, 2003 12:05 PM
To: mailing list fop-dev; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: source for hz algorithm
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Victor Mote wrote:
> I have been looking for some time for a source for the HZ (Hermann Zapf)
> algorithm which (as I understand) optimizes line breaks for mul
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Victor Mote wrote:
> I have been looking for some time for a source for the HZ (Hermann Zapf)
> algorithm which (as I understand) optimizes line breaks for multiple lines,
> looking for rivers, too many lines in a row ending in hyphens, etc. I think
> I first saw it referenc
entation easily.
-Original Message-
From: Victor Mote [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:44 AM
To: mailing list fop-dev
Subject: source for hz algorithm
Hello all:
I have been looking for some time for a source for the HZ (Hermann Zapf)
algorithm which (as I unders
Hello all:
I have been looking for some time for a source for the HZ (Hermann Zapf)
algorithm which (as I understand) optimizes line breaks for multiple lines,
looking for rivers, too many lines in a row ending in hyphens, etc. I think
I first saw it referenced in Bringhurst's book, and that it wa
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