On 13-Oct-10 07:58, Milos Rancic wrote:
but it would have been likely that we would have
it in the future, if Transnitrian Moldovans would have adopt Internet
in significant numbers
Why not create the new subdomain ro-cyrl.wikipedia.org at that point in
time? Nobody says the current content
On 13 October 2010 11:19, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
Nobody says the current content should be deleted -- just stop
serving it.
Here you are playing with language, not advancing the discussion. By
delete, the thread starter meant precisely stop serving it.
- d.
On 13-Oct-10 13:32, David Gerard wrote:
On 13 October 2010 11:19, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
Nobody says the current content should be deleted -- just stop
serving it.
Here you are playing with language, not advancing the discussion. By
delete, the thread starter meant precisely stop
An'n 13.10.2010 03:29, hett Gerard Meijssen schreven:
It has been suggested that a solution should be able to pass muster at the
language committee. I am seriously in favour of an end to this extravaganza.
However, I have not seen a proposal that would pass muster of the members of
the
Hoi,
The language committee does not involve itself normally. In this thread it
was suggested that it could by exception.
What I have done is apply the normal arguments we use for new languages. The
history of a language is of no relevance. What is relevant is that we have
one series of projects
In light of all the arguments, political and otherwise, discussed here,
I propose the following:
* Redirect mo.wiki to ro.wiki; I think this is undisputed, per the
LoC recognition that Moldovan is deprecated;
* Store the mo.wiki content, in whatever state it may be, for later use;
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 15:36, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
* Apart from Mark, nobody actually said they wanted to /read/, never
mind write Romanian content in Cyrillic; the gadget I propose for
ro.wiki would be more of a gesture of courtesy than any real help
to anyone,
On 13-Oct-10 17:40, Milos Rancic wrote:
I think the community at ro.wiki wouldn't mind that.
Are you saying that ro.wp community would agree with transliteration
engine between Romanian Latin and Moldovan Cyrillic orthographies?
I'm saying that I *think* the ro.wp wouldn't mind a *gadget*,
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 16:49, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
On 13-Oct-10 17:40, Milos Rancic wrote:
I think the community at ro.wiki wouldn't mind that.
Are you saying that ro.wp community would agree with transliteration
engine between Romanian Latin and Moldovan Cyrillic orthographies?
Milos,
I'm not proposing turning ro.wiki to ro-latin-and-cyrl.wiki. I'm
proposing a gadget that would seamlessly transliterate to Cyrillic *and
back to Latin again, if possible* -- that way everybody reads in their
own script, and (if possible) writes in their own script, while the
database
An'n 13.10.2010 16:49, hett Gutza schreven:
On 13-Oct-10 17:40, Milos Rancic wrote:
I think the community at ro.wiki wouldn't mind that.
Are you saying that ro.wp community would agree with transliteration
engine between Romanian Latin and Moldovan Cyrillic orthographies?
I'm saying that
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 17:10, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
I'm not proposing turning ro.wiki to ro-latin-and-cyrl.wiki. I'm
proposing a gadget that would seamlessly transliterate to Cyrillic *and
back to Latin again, if possible* -- that way everybody reads in their
own script, and (if
On 13-Oct-10 18:25, Milos Rancic wrote:
That sounds reasonably to me. I have to check what do other LangCom
members think about it.
What is it exactly that sounds reasonable to you? I haven't the faintest
idea what you're talking about. I don't know how the Chinese/Serbian
engine works --
An'n 13.10.2010 17:31, hett Gutza schreven:
On 13-Oct-10 18:25, Milos Rancic wrote:
That sounds reasonably to me. I have to check what do other LangCom
members think about it.
What is it exactly that sounds reasonable to you? I haven't the faintest
idea what you're talking about. I don't
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 17:31, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
On 13-Oct-10 18:25, Milos Rancic wrote:
That sounds reasonably to me. I have to check what do other LangCom
members think about it.
What is it exactly that sounds reasonable to you? I haven't the faintest
idea what you're talking
On 13-Oct-10 18:52, Milos Rancic wrote:
There are also some rewrite rules. For example, the default (based on
amount of texts written in Cyrillic; however, script-neutral) of
Serbian Wikipedia is Cyrillic. If you go to http://sr.wikipedia.org/
-- you will find the page in Cyrillic. However,
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 17:59, Gutza gu...@moongate.ro wrote:
On 13-Oct-10 18:52, Milos Rancic wrote:
There are also some rewrite rules. For example, the default (based on
amount of texts written in Cyrillic; however, script-neutral) of
Serbian Wikipedia is Cyrillic. If you go to
I created a small test script at
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Slomox/vector2.js. Works well to
Cyrillize nds.wp ;-) (or any other wiki). It only supports reading so
far, editing will be harder. The problem will be cases like a Romanian
article written in Latin script and containing
Hoi,
What reason would there be that is consistent with the aims of the Wikimedia
Foundation. What reason could be given that explicitly does not negate your
wish for the deletion of the mo.wikipedia?
You can not have it both ways imho.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 13 October 2010 17:59, Gutza
I've been watching the conversation on this topic from the bench.
Milos, this is a highly sensitive issue, you can't tell private
parties to settle this privately and come back with a solution -- this
has to be settled in a public medium (if only for the consensus to be
visible). I suggest a page
Gutza, the problem with such a solution is inequality of numbers.
Every time this has been discussed previously, such forums have been
dominated by Romanians from Romania with very little input from
Moldovans and 0 input from Transnistrians. This is unfair and steps
should be taken to remedy any
I think Milos proposal was about to discuss the issue of the moldovan
wikipedia inside the interested people, the ones who sustain the idea of
a such, and the opponents (maybe the word is not the most appropriate
one - but i can remember any other more neutral word), together with the
Langcom. In
Mark,
You are a veteran in Wikipedia matters -- you have been involved in this
project for several years under nickname Node ue. You have fought in
the Moldovan language article on en.wp for years, and you have
single-handedly created and defended the entire mo.wiki project, from
interface to
2010/10/12 Gutza gu...@moongate.ro:
Mark,
You are a veteran in Wikipedia matters -- you have been involved in this
project for several years under nickname Node ue. You have fought in
the Moldovan language article on en.wp for years, and you have
single-handedly created and defended the
Mark,
There seems to be some communication problem here. Do you actually have
an opinion on this matter or not? If you do have an opinion, what is it?
Thank you,
Gutza
On 13-Oct-10 03:36, M. Williamson wrote:
2010/10/12 Gutza gu...@moongate.ro:
Mark,
You are a veteran in Wikipedia matters
On the matter of the disposition of mo.wp - I have stated it several
times clearly in the other thread, that there should be some sort of
accommodation available for users of the Cyrillic alphabet that
enables both reading from and contributing to a Wikipedia, be it ro.wp
or a separate Wikipedia.
Mark,
I hope I didn't touch the actual mo.wp issue in any way -- I was
obviously referring to the decision process. On which your opinion seems
to be don't involve the community, keep it transparent, protect the
absent. Milos came up with a proposal. I came up with a proposal. What
is your
Hoi,
It has been suggested that a solution should be able to pass muster at the
language committee. I am seriously in favour of an end to this extravaganza.
However, I have not seen a proposal that would pass muster of the members of
the language committee.
Let me be specific; a solution needs to
On 13-Oct-10 04:29, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Remember, a Wikipedia is granted to a language not a
country.
True. But which language is this about, specifically?
Gutza
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Hoi,
The solution of a dissolution of the mo.wikipedia is in the recognition that
it is Romanian language written in Cyrillic. This is the central argument
and, consequently the Romanian language is part of an acceptable solution.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 13 October 2010 03:34, Gutza
But then we have the following contradicting statements (and both are
yours):
1. a Wikipedia is granted to a language not a country
2. the Moldovan language is in fact the Romanian language (the fact
that it's written in Cyrillic is as relevant as proposing a
project for
Gutza, your #2 statement does not follow, Cyrillic has been and is
currently used, including in schools, for the Eastern
Romance/Daco-Romanian/Romanian/Moldovan/whatever variety spoken in all
or some parts of Moldova (and/or, depending on your chosen political
reality, the Pridnestrovian Moldavian
Mark,
You have been designated by Milos as the representative for the
wonderful, if elusive, Cyrillic-writing Romanian-speakin people of the
Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic. You seem to have taken your
responsibilities seriously, so you wouldn't mind if I ask: where is your
people? No
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 00:49, Zugravu Gheorghe
zugravu.gheor...@gmail.com wrote:
I think Milos proposal was about to discuss the issue of the moldovan
wikipedia inside the interested people, the ones who sustain the idea of
a such, and the opponents (maybe the word is not the most appropriate
This issue has to be solved. And it couldn't be solved without general
agreement on how it should be.
I suggest that interested parties make a deal and I'll argue inside of
the LangCom that it suggests to the Board to accept the agreement.
As Transnitria has poor Internet access and we don't
On 06.10.2010 02:22, M. Williamson wrote:
Marcus Buck wrote:
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_schools_in_Transnistria.
They want to switch to Latin since long but the government does
everything to stop them.
Marcus, that is a tiny minority of Moldovans in Transnistria, and that
2010/10/10 Zugravu Gheorghe zugravu.gheor...@gmail.com:
On 06.10.2010 02:22, M. Williamson wrote:
Marcus Buck wrote:
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_schools_in_Transnistria.
They want to switch to Latin since long but the government does
everything to stop them.
Marcus, that
An'n 10.10.2010 22:50, hett M. Williamson schreven:
Yes, and I would like to remind you that until relatively recently,
all varieties of Romanian/Moldovan were always written in Cyrillic.
Anti-Cyrillic position is to state that Moldovan Cyrillic is an
artificial, Russian-based orthography,
Have a look at http://www.marcusbuck.org/ro/. It's a quick demo of
ro.wp content converted to Cyrillic. It's just a tiny extract of about
50 ro.wp articles (I wanted to import the full dump, but I have a
limited bandwidth connection and the dump upload failed at 90% of the
1GB file). The
Marcus, thank you for the test. I don't think anybody doubts or
doubted that this is possible - of course a few more rules need to be
added, for example ea is almost always converted to cyrillic Ya, with
special exceptions, and several other minor mistakes, but that isn't
anything to do with the
An'n 05.10.2010 21:03, hett M. Williamson schreven:
Marcus, thank you for the test. I don't think anybody doubts or
doubted that this is possible - of course a few more rules need to be
added, for example ea is almost always converted to cyrillic Ya, with
special exceptions, and several
2010/10/5 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com:
Hoi,
Technically it is easier to transliterate from Cyrillic. So when
transliteration works in a round robin fashion, it does not really matter in
what script people edit. It will only be stored in one script. The choice
for a script can be
Marcus, have you conducted a poll of those people? Please don't make
pronouncements of that sort without any research. We are not here to
decide what people should or should not do, we are here to reflect
things as they are on the ground, what is used by people currently,
what is their native
An'n 05.10.2010 22:24, hett M. Williamson schreven:
2010/10/5 Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com:
Hoi,
Technically it is easier to transliterate from Cyrillic. So when
transliteration works in a round robin fashion, it does not really matter in
what script people edit. It will only be
Hoi,
Your approach is the wrong one. Our aim is to bring information to all
people of this world. When people leave for political reasons, they are
welcome to leave. Their point of view is clearly not the Neutral Point Of
View that is also expected of them in their contributions.
Thanks,
NPOV is good as far as it goes, but the issues of wiki naming and
language are necessarily one where positions need to be taken on some
very touchy real-world issues.
The naming of mo.wikipedia and its use of Cyrillic were particularly
unfortunate, as the Moldovan standard alphabet is Roman, the
Hoi,
We will never have a Romanian or a Moldovan Wikipedia. What we have is a
Romanian language Wikipedia.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 6 October 2010 04:11, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote:
NPOV is good as far as it goes, but the issues of wiki naming and
language are necessarily
I just went through the long closure proposal, and I have a question: Do we
know of any active current supporters of mo.wp? The proposal for closure
seemed to show one active contributor (who created the bulk of the
articles). If a proposal to create a similar wp would go to langcom right
now,
Yes, I am not proposing that we have to have a new Moldovan-Romanian
language Wiki (we don't have a United States-english Wiki, a
Canadian-english Wiki, a Great Britain-english Wiki, an
Australian-english Wiki, etc...). (oh, ouch, there's a contingent from
New Zealand chasing me now!)
I am
Hoi,
If a request for a Romanian language and a Moldovan language Wikipedia would
be made, the Moldovan Wikipedia would be denied because it is no longer
considered a language. The Romanian Wikipedia would be eligible when support
is provided / allowed for the Cyrillic script.
I do not involve
An'n 05.10.2010 22:56, hett Gerard Meijssen schreven:
Hoi,
Your approach is the wrong one. Our aim is to bring information to all
people of this world. When people leave for political reasons, they are
welcome to leave. Their point of view is clearly not the Neutral Point Of
View that is
The Romanian Wikipedia would be eligible when support
is provided / allowed for the Cyrillic script.
I do not involve myself in the closures of projects. Typically they are not
closed and often people have agendas asking for closures.
So a Romanian language would not be eligible unless it
Hoi,
The only thing expected is that they allow for a round robin
transliteration. The default will be the Latin script, there will only be an
option associated with the Romanian language that allows for the text to be
shown in Cyrillic.
The language policy allows for one project per project. It
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Muhammad Yahia shipmas...@gmail.com wrote:
So a Romanian language would not be eligible unless it allowed support
for Cyrillic, even if there is no community that is interested in writing in
it?
My point is simply that there seems to be a lot of discussion,
An'n 06.10.2010 00:00, hett Muhammad Yahia schreven:
The Romanian Wikipedia would be eligible when support
is provided / allowed for the Cyrillic script.
I do not involve myself in the closures of projects. Typically they are not
closed and often people have agendas asking for closures.
An'n 06.10.2010 00:13, hett Gerard Meijssen schreven:
Hoi,
The only thing expected is that they allow for a round robin
transliteration. The default will be the Latin script, there will only be an
option associated with the Romanian language that allows for the text to be
shown in Cyrillic.
An'n 06.10.2010 00:16, hett Nathan schreven:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Muhammad Yahiashipmas...@gmail.com wrote:
So a Romanian language would not be eligible unless it allowed support
for Cyrillic, even if there is no community that is interested in writing in
it?
My point is
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Marcus Buck m...@marcusbuck.org wrote:
Nathan
Mark's self-assessment is mo-2 and he was one of the main contributors
before the wiki got closed down:
http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilizator:Node_ue.
Marcus Buck
User:Slomox
My mistake. I knew he was a
Marcus Buck wrote:
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_schools_in_Transnistria.
They want to switch to Latin since long but the government does
everything to stop them.
Marcus, that is a tiny minority of Moldovans in Transnistria, and that
article has many POV problems as well (I gave
Nathan, perhaps there is a communication error here. GerardM and I are
arguing for the same thing, which is a transliteration engine, but
ONLY so long as it allows people to read AND contribute, rather than
just being read-only as proposed by Marcus. My other contention is
that if this is not
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:26 PM, M. Williamson node...@gmail.com wrote:
Nathan, perhaps there is a communication error here. GerardM and I are
arguing for the same thing, which is a transliteration engine, but
ONLY so long as it allows people to read AND contribute, rather than
just being
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:26 PM, M. Williamson node...@gmail.com wrote:
Nathan, perhaps there is a communication error here. GerardM and I are
arguing for the same thing, which is a transliteration engine, but
ONLY so long as
I don't think it's right to delete content just because someone
doesn't like it without creating any sort of alternative. In addition,
I don't see how ro.wp community support would be needed if a separate
subdomain were used to set up such a gateway - it would really be
little more than a mirror
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:56 PM, M. Williamson node...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think it's right to delete content just because someone
doesn't like it without creating any sort of alternative. In addition,
I don't see how ro.wp community support would be needed if a separate
subdomain were
In that case, I think you and I have misunderstood each other. I don't
think a transliteration engine should be a precondition to mo.wp being
*moved*, just to it being *deleted*. I don't have any problem or
disagreement with it being moved immediately.
-m.
2010/10/5 Nathan nawr...@gmail.com:
On
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:24 PM, M. Williamson node...@gmail.com wrote:
My proposal: Move mo.wp to mo-cyrl.wp or ro-cyrl.wp as an interim
measure. Create converter, once converter is created AND enabled,
delete mo-cyrl.wp.
Thanks, Mark.
Is there any opposition to naming such a temporary
--- El lun 4-oct-10, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com escribió:
Is there any opposition to naming such a temporary project
ro-cyrl?
In your proposal, the converter would eventually be
available (as a user pref) on ro.wp?
The problem with the converter is that it only works for visualization.
2010/10/4 Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com:
Is there any opposition to naming such a temporary project ro-cyrl?
In your proposal, the converter would eventually be available (as a
user pref) on ro.wp?
I agree that it should be called ro-cyrl as mo is no longer considered
a valid ISO code, but
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:39 AM, Mariano Cecowski
marianocecow...@yahoo.com.ar wrote:
Would it be possible to change the source for editing and then back to be
stored? I can think of a couple of problems to solve, including image and
template names, or language links, but all of them should be
On 4 October 2010 14:36, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:
Since this regularly comes up on this list, and the request is
outstanding since 2006, maybe at the bottom of the to-do pile isn't
the right place. Wouldn't the smartest temporary solution be to
redirect mo.wp to ro.wp and move mo.wp to
Since this regularly comes up on this list, and the request is
outstanding since 2006, maybe at the bottom of the to-do pile isn't
the right place. Wouldn't the smartest temporary solution be to
redirect mo.wp to ro.wp and move mo.wp to ro-cyrl.wp? That doesn't
seem like a terribly difficult
On 4 October 2010 13:54, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:39 AM, Mariano Cecowski
marianocecow...@yahoo.com.ar wrote:
Would it be possible to change the source for editing and then back to be
stored? I can think of a couple of problems to solve, including image
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:02 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4 October 2010 13:54, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:39 AM, Mariano Cecowski
marianocecow...@yahoo.com.ar wrote:
Would it be possible to change the source for editing and then back to be
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:53 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4 October 2010 14:36, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:
Since this regularly comes up on this list, and the request is
outstanding since 2006, maybe at the bottom of the to-do pile isn't
the right place. Wouldn't the
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:02 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
Possibly putting it at the bottom of the *long* list of other problems
in need of resolution (e.g. all the volunteer work that's backed up a
year or more, as Simetrical noted on wikitech-l) would be an idea.
It already is,
That is a questionable assumption. Mo.wp's sitenotice explains that if
you'd prefer to view Moldovan content in Latin, the official alphabet
of the Republic of Moldova, you may find it at ro.wp.
I am willing to bet that most of the people who have signed these
petitions will be upset if any
2010/10/4 Nathan nawr...@gmail.com:
alternate script of Romanian (i.e. mo.wp vs. ro-cyrl.wp). As for
linguistic rights... Not really relevant, is it? But I guess the
How is it not relevant? To me, that is at the very heart of this case:
the right of a language community to exist and for us to
Also, note that it is not the Moldovans who are being ignored. There
is one persistent spammer. Yes, it is clear people support him judging
by the petitions he's shown us, but I gave them a glance and found
many of the signatures are not from Moldovans. Here is one example of
a signature on that
Hello everyone, I'd like to remind you that existence of the mo. wikipedia
is extremely insulting for us from Moldova.
The one with the power, please take action and delete it.
causes Delete moldovan Wikipedia http://www.causes.com/causes/39775 has
5.140 members
Have a good day.
I presume that there is some background to this request that we are supposed
to understand? If I had to guess (which I shouldn't), my supposition would
be that the post and petition relate to some dispute about whether Moldovan
is a separate language from Romanian? Is there any further
On Oct 3, 2010, at 4:43 PM, Newyorkbrad wrote:
And, something I should
already know the answer to but just realized I don't, who within the
foundation or community makes this type of decisions, anyway?
One of the key points that kept being reiterated in the Strategic
Planning process was
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Philippe Beaudette
pbeaude...@wikimedia.org wrote:
English Wikiquote? Once the decision is made, then it falls to the
developers to actually flip the switch or say the magic words, or do
whatever it is they do to close the project.
Philippe
It has already been
An'n 04.10.2010 01:59, hett K. Peachey schreven:
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Philippe Beaudette
pbeaude...@wikimedia.org wrote:
English Wikiquote? Once the decision is made, then it falls to the
developers to actually flip the switch or say the magic words, or do
whatever it is they
Greetings,
We don't do this if the project is valid, just inactive and can restart
at a later date. But we usually remove projects entirely if they are
closed forever. See tokipona.wikipedia.org or tlh.wikipedia.org.
Marcus Buck
User:Slomox
The project was active, but judging by the
An'n 04.10.2010 02:13, hett Zachary Harden schreven:
The project was active, but judging by the comments made before and after the
closure, it was closed due to a political spat (like a lot of projects coming
from the Eastern Bloc).
Which ones exactly where closed? I don't think this claim
As mentioned, closure of a language version has its own page proposal
for closure of [that wiki] on Meta, so no needs to open an RFC.
If we consider A as a language or a dialect should be treated in a
scientific manner. In general if there is an language either natural
(like English, German ...)
Zachary, contrary to characterizations made by others on this thread,
that is exactly what happened. The Wiki was active, there were users
creating articles, but unfortunately political considerations took top
priority in a community vote that was held, which essentially pitted
Russians against
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