Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Today, humans go to some length to record history, to preserve companies and their assets. But for some reason preserving the means to do things -- the essence of a mind -- this has this different status. Why not seek to inherit minds too? Sure, I can see the same knowledge base can be repres

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Last Friday I was waiting to take a left across traffic. There was a Muni train coming in my direction that was going to block my turn for a few seconds. Rushing it was possible, but I had a passenger. Also, I remembered the obscured downhill right lane I'd be entering had some row houses alo

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

On 4/12/22 5:53 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: I am not saying such a system would not need to be predatory or parasitic, just that it can be arranged to preserve the contents of a library. And I can't help knee-jerking that when a cell attempts to live forever (and/or replicate itself perfectly)

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

On 4/12/22 5:10 PM, glen wrote: Ha! 8^D But neither the ANN clone, nor the *stereotyped* heuristics generated by an autonomous car capture the high-dimensional opportunity I believe meat organisms experience. Yes, the subsequent evolution of the ANNs and the stereotyped out-group are more co

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

I am not saying such a system would not need to be predatory or parasitic, just that it can be arranged to preserve the contents of a library. > On Apr 12, 2022, at 4:29 PM, glen wrote: > > Dude. Every time I think we could stop, you say something I object to. >8^D > You're doing it on purpos

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Dude. Every time I think we could stop, you say something I object to. >8^D You're doing it on purpose. I'm sure of it ... like pulling the wings off flies and cackling like a madman. No, the maintenance protocol must be *part of* the meat-like intelligence. That's why I mention things like su

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

That meat-like intelligence could live forever with the right maintenance protocol. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 4:11 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics Ha! 8^D B

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Ha! 8^D But neither the ANN clone, nor the *stereotyped* heuristics generated by an autonomous car capture the high-dimensional opportunity I believe meat organisms experience. Yes, the subsequent evolution of the ANNs and the stereotyped out-group are more concrete than most synthetic minds.

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Now it is entirely possible to take a massive pre-trained neural net like GPT3 and run it in two places at once or have different instances use a baseline and take divergent paths from different training. None of that is possible for humans, at least yet.Some autonomous cars even know enough

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Exactly. Both of these (low turnover wisdom propagation & "flat" infoscape) fail in my conception because they lack the concrete (definit) particulars. Even if we have one 400 year old vampire telling funny stories to a 30 year vampire about a now-exploded vampire from 700 years ago, the sheer

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

I'm not really convinced that digital ML won't reach human intelligence. Progress is by leaps and bounds. It seems impossible to keep up with that literature. Digital would be live forever.Sure, media would degrade and need periodic replacement. How is it obvious that is impossible? F

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

But what *is* the distribution of deaths for brain/cns animals? with or without scaling? Is it 75 years for humans? Is it Gaussian? Surely not. Does it differ if you base it on biomass instead of number of organisms? I can't help but think of behavior like Gödel's ... starving because you only

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

This japanese toddlers put me in mind of Ten Meter Tower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU2AvkKA4kM. Is he going to jump? Is she climbing back down? -- rec -- On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 4:48 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > If there is something essential about turnover, then it seems like the > rat

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

On 4/12/22 12:19 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: The contrast between fewer replication cycles of vampires that live thousands of years vs. many generations of short-lived mortals seems related.. Is the walk deep and informative, or is the key thing to stay away from attractors? If there are truly b

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

If there is something essential about turnover, then it seems like the rate would be informative. Why 75 years and not 25 or 1000? Why should every kind of life form conform to about 75 years? Is there a universal logical depth that explains the need for cognitive death, and thus death?I

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Yeah, that article is typical Haidt, full of just enough good evidence to blind you to the sanctimonious doctrinal pedantry that surrounds it. Within several clumps of postulates, one clump as small as 2 sentences, he contradicts himself but somehow thinks the narrative stays coherent. Pffft.

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

For example, this article [1] speaks to the potential fragility of cultural evolution. Wouldn't it make sense to loosen the mind/cognition coupling if it is possible to do so? What is uniquely useful about human animals as an adaptive vehicle? [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Well, I'd argue that cultural evolution is a higher order language like chemistry to physics, biology to chemistry, sociology to biology, etc. We can use the higher order language agnostically, leaving the metaphysics for the philosophers (until/unless practical demands force us to solve some

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Or to put it another way, what good is cultural evolution? -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 11:36 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics But going back to less memorable/intuiti

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

But going back to less memorable/intuitive communicated heuristics, *if* our minds/cognitions are loosely coupled to our bodies (I'm thinking more polyphenism and robustness, not dualism), then we should be able to see the memorability/intuitiveness increase. But if there's a large portion of

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

The contrast between fewer replication cycles of vampires that live thousands of years vs. many generations of short-lived mortals seems related.. Is the walk deep and informative, or is the key thing to stay away from attractors? If there are truly billions of individuals, then short trips ca

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

On 4/12/22 11:42 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Vitalik Buterin remarked, “An emotional part of me says that once you start going down that way, /professionalizing/ is just another word for losing your soul” [1] That sounds plausible.  However, I have long thought that an important part of prod

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

What always seems to be missing in these discussions is the (my?) always present ability to [re]parse the world at will. Yes, there are gravity wells or attractors where if you start insisting on a security detail everywhere you go, you'll end up like Trump, Romney, or Sanders, surrounded by a

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Glen - Your use of "regret" is a dead giveaway to your narrativity. A regret operator (even in formal settings) is only useful in contexts that assume both free-will and narrativity. I don't know that *I* experience a lot of regret, mostly because I recognize that anything I might "regret" in

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Vitalik Buterin remarked, “An emotional part of me says that once you start going down that way, professionalizing is just another word for losing your soul” [1] That sounds plausible. However, I have long thought that an important part of productivity is to find consciousness-lowering habits.

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Marcus - Steve writes: < Arguments for generational rather than Individual/personal growth and transformation... “I don’t think we should try to have people live for a really long time,” Musk recently told Insider. “It would cause asphyxiation of society because the truth is, m

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Your use of "regret" is a dead giveaway to your narrativity. A regret operator (even in formal settings) is only useful in contexts that assume both free-will and narrativity. Marcus' link citing our oft-discussed use of psychedelics to raise the "heat" in our "annealing" minds also targets tha

Re: [FRIAM] Virtual FRIAM moving to Thursdays. FRIAM will be in person on Fridays

You're not the group's only octogenarian. I*m 81 and counting. John D On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 2:34 PM Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Has anybody questioned St. John’s about this matter? > Speaking as the groups only octogenarian, I think I will wait and see how > many septuagenarians die before

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Steve writes: < Arguments for generational rather than Individual/personal growth and transformation... “I don’t think we should try to have people live for a really long time,” Musk recently told Insider. “It would cause asphyxiation of society because the truth is, most people don’t change t

Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

-- rec --    wrote: Science week before last, mixed in with the telomere-to-telomere human genome, https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abo0713 discusses Thompson /et al./ (/3/ ) describe taking an experimental appr

[FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics

Science week before last, mixed in with the telomere-to-telomere human genome, https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abo0713 discusses Thompson *et al.* (*3* > ) describe > taking an experimental approach to the question of how opp