Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

An editorial in the Boston Globe this morning notes that both Chelsea and Cambridge, two cities adjacent to Boston, are experimenting with UBI to reduce food insecurity: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/05/17/opinion/solution-hunger-takes-shape-chelsea-cambridge/ Analysis of the Chelsea program s

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Glen, Re *Wow. That reads like good, hard science fiction. In my skim, the only thing I missed was an adversarial effort, positioning of white, black, and grey hatted *attacks*. There was plenty of waterfall-like structure for assessing vulnerability. But I missed the adversarial effort. Is it in t

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Interesting that you should send this (I haven't had a chance to look at it much yet). Someone just sent a link to something rather similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_Without_Growth. On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:01 AM Pieter Steenekamp < piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote: > Finance 4.

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Wow. That reads like good, hard science fiction. In my skim, the only thing I missed was an adversarial effort, positioning of white, black, and grey hatted *attacks*. There was plenty of waterfall-like structure for assessing vulnerability. But I missed the adversarial effort. Is it in there? I

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

This is good to have; thank you Pieter. Eric > On May 14, 2021, at 3:59 PM, Pieter Steenekamp > wrote: > > Finance 4.0—Towards a Socio-Ecological Finance System > > A Participatory Framework to Promote Sustainability > > Download link: > https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Finance 4.0—Towards a Socio-Ecological Finance System A Participatory Framework to Promote Sustainability Download link: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-71400-0.pdf On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 22:21, David Eric Smith wrote: > I heard a nice story at an annual meeting a lon

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I heard a nice story at an annual meeting a long time ago: maybe seven or eight years now; maybe a decade. It was in a side-conversation, told by some high-flying economist who had been in the room where it happened. This was soon after Obama had appointed Tim Geithner to try to repair the mes

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Re *Ultimately, I am probing the group to see what kinds of frameworks eachof us has in mind.* My choice is a self-regulating participatory market society. I quote from Dirk Helbing's Economics 2.0: The Natural Step towards A Self-Regulating, Participatory Market Society https://arxiv.org/abs/130

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Each of the three citations was meant to evoke, distinct though related, approaches to assigning quantities to qualities of networks. The Levine paper[1] focuses on a technique for flattening a food web onto a chain (trophic level). What I find novel is that the technique appears robust to loops (c

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I think your (and Dave's and Pieter's) conceptions are too limited, too local. I don't know what explicit 3 types of reciprocity Dave might register. But I guess my thinking is polluted by generic influence, up- and down-regulation, correlative and causative. The structure of the network matters

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

That's an excellent question. I've only had the chance to glance at those 3 cites. To decide how they could help propagate signals would take more investment. It would be helpful if you could give a short blurb about why each one came to mind as appropriate for reciprocity. I remember you mentio

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

A very insightful and humane comment, David. On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 8:50 AM Prof David West wrote: > I find anthropology to be fascinating because it is complex, > interpretative, dynamic, highly contextual, and, ultimately anecdotal. "The > ways of humans" are not reducible to formulae, rules,

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I find anthropology to be fascinating because it is complex, interpretative, dynamic, highly contextual, and, ultimately anecdotal. "The ways of humans" are not reducible to formulae, rules, laws, or algorithms. There are 'patterns' and it is possible to establish cultural 'norms' to which — alw

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I just want to share two stories with you regarding reciprocity. 1 Years ago I had to be in Miami for a couple of months for business and my family joined me. My one son was ill and got treatment at the Jackson Memorial Hospital. There was one nurse in particular that went not the extra mile but m

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Lazily composing at least two upshots of this conversation (and the smart-contract parallel one): 1) I think Russ brought up what *I* thought was implicit in Reciprocity (though I understand why it is not  since I borrowed my use of the term from gift economies, not adhering to the (obvious) mathe

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I have failed to follow this discussion very closely. That said, to what extent could frameworks like those that underlie spring rank or gauge-theoretic price as curvature give reasonable characterizations of recip

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

y 11, 2021 10:51 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI > >   > >   > > >You will take the red pill or blue pill, there’s no question about it. > > Every time I take one, I doubt myself and take double

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Just the universe doing its thing, nothing to worry about. From: Friam On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 10:51 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI >You will take the red pill or blue pill, there’s no question about

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

M > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI > >   > >  Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Russ writes: > >   > > < It seems that the only solution might be to forgo even balanced > reciprocity and build a

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

You will take the red pill or blue pill, there’s no question about it. From: Friam On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 10:38 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI Marcus Daniels wrote: Russ writes: < It seems that the o

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

 Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Russ writes: > >   > > < It seems that the only solution might be to forgo even balanced > reciprocity and build a society of people who appreciate and are > satisfied with whatever they get. This would be a world based on > gratitude and selflessness rather than reciproc

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Well, as I tried to imply in my response about transitivity, reciprocity is *merely* a specific type of a more general thing. And though I doubt reciprocity can generate gratitude and selflessness, that general thing might. That generalized reciprocity is implied in this article: The miracle of

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

e stop believing in their agency. Marcus From: Friam On Behalf Of Russ Abbott Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:29 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI I think davew is right. Almost certainly Money IS NOT the root of al

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I think davew is right. Almost certainly Money *IS NOT** the root of all evil. **Evil **IS *the root of all *EVIL* -- although it's not clear to me that *Evil IS the root of all money.* *The biggest impediment to change is, in my opinion, the individual human being. To illustrate: consider that

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

One of the reasons I have trouble dealing with the logical connective "tonk" is the idea that it becomes a reasonable connective in logics where you abandon transitivity. This same problem rears in conceptions of N-ary agreements. For example, if Alice gives Joe a gift, then Joe re-gifts that to

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

The web of "economic relations" among human beings extends far beyond those that involve money. In some portions of that larger economy, the use of money is insulting (at best), often proscribed, and definitely debasing. Think love, friendship, marriage, sex, Would it be possible for a mu

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I am appreciating Russ's inlining observations/questions of Glen's 5points. Supernatural:   I think Russ's and DaveW's points about the role of the Super/Supra Natural in any human project is important and may well be the fulcrum that balances our never-ending Metaphor-Flogging.   I'm

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

On 5/10/21 12:10 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > • civilization is already a cooperative enterprise, it's just a matter of > cooperation's extent/ubiquity > > Agree. That's one of the reasons Trump's norm-breaking was so > destructive. > > • there's nothing supernatural, so all so

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I went looking for your 5 principles. • civilization is already a cooperative enterprise, it's just a matter of cooperation's extent/ubiquity Agree. That's one of the reasons Trump's norm-breaking was so destructive. • there's nothing supernatural, so all solutions have to be built on science A

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

OK. If you changed that to say that one of the functions social mechanisms like contracts happen to implement are money-facilitated transactions, then that would've been fine. But by proposing the 5 principles I did, I was attempting to answer your question of what a society might look like with

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Sounds like we're not disagreeing too much. You wrote, "By saying the purpose of contracts and laws is to spell out additional details of money-facilitated transactions ... that that's the purpose of laws, etc. is putting the cart before the horse. We've gone too far, put too much emphasis on the m

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

No, I'm not *quite* complaining about the reduction of money to a quantifier. My objection extends further to the ability of any particular money (e.g. wooden chits) to stand in, as a mediator, for what it helps trade. Your espresso machine is not *merely* worth $1000. That is the reduction I'm

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Here is the *Cliff Notes* introduction to Money . Money is often defined in terms of the three functions or services. Money serves as a medium of exchange, as a store of value, and as a unit of account. Mone

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Using wooden chits *and* US dollars limits overly reductive conceptions of money. It's fine to play word games and point out ambiguity in the usage of the term "money". But it should be clear that, like with languages, having diverse types of money is less reductive than 1 type of money. I'd no

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

As you say, your alternatives are "money writ large." So how does that eliminate money? It just changes its form. I don't understand how options further your position. How do you trade them without something like money? -- Russ On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 8:03 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > Yes, I agree it'

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Yes, I agree it's difficult. And I'm not suggesting I have any knowledge or expertise. But the principles I listed were intended as a foundation. Given that foundation, it's difficult for me to imagine *not* having anything other than money in common with any other trader. That extreme case, whe

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I meant it seriously. Thank you for taking me seriously. I agree that those extra "dimensions," rules, norms, laws, etc. are very important. Do you believe they could all exist without a framework of money to refer to, e.g., for penalties (e.g., for when an agreement is not met), awards (e.g., as

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

No. We already have N-ary obligations in our current markets. So it's anything but utopian. You asked how to get there from here. I'm taking you seriously and trying to answer your question. Maybe I'm being naive in doing so. But, take a look at the research tabs on any modern trading app. What

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Sounds utopian: from everyone according to his abilities; from everyone according to his meds. On Sun, May 9, 2021, 2:47 PM ⛧ glen wrote: > But reciprocity need not be merely dyadic, as I tried to point out with my > post about N-ary contracts in an anarcho-syndicalist system. Dave alludes > to

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I cannot make any general comments re the role of pervasive access to the supernatural in a society because my direct experience is limited to one instance. In fact, I know of only two extant examples within the Judaeo-Christian tradition (Mormons and the Society of Friends/Quakers) and one ext

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

In all three societies mentioned there are very few free riders, and persistent ones are shunned. Shunning is an extremely powerful means of social "control." Similarly, shunning is the way that any 'criminal" or outrageously non-conformist behaviors are dealt with. I use outrageously deliberate

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Hm. OK. The problem I see with allowing a supernatural component into the legal system is a lack of access to a "touchstone", a transpersonal objective truth. Supernatural access, even if such exists, is notoriously exploitable by defectors, perhaps including a cabal of crony Bishops. By disallo

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

But reciprocity need not be merely dyadic, as I tried to point out with my post about N-ary contracts in an anarcho-syndicalist system. Dave alludes to such a legal system by using the term "balance". Defectors in a multidimensional "market" are *easier* to coerce than in a unidimensional "marke

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Two different points to consider: *Point one: what do you want to achieve?* For everyone to be happy? For everyone to flourish? For everyone to be equal? For everyone to be free? For the environment to flourish? For all of this to be sustainable? Of course, different people have different values,

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Dave, Very interesting example. As you said, "the "economy" of these cultures is based on a mixture of balanced and general reciprocity." That works only if there are no (or very few) free-riders. How can that rule be enforced? (It's certainly not "natural.") Either it's enforced individually, i.e

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

With one slight modification, I agree completely with glen's five principles. The exception: *"there is nothing supernatural, so all solutions have to be built on science."* The closest thing to a "cultural universal" (a practice, norm, technology, custom, etc. that is shared by all cultures) is

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

It's not clear to me why my attempt to answer hasn't impacted the way you repeated the question. So I've copied it below. What I outline is a hand wave at a future structure not entirely without money, but with an augmented money. I think these 5 principles also model the non-moneyed organizatio

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I found "Grain" to be the most relevant to my own sensitivities but I've a friend whose sensitivities are maybe closer to your own who turned me onto "Art" because of that.   The former is more about the human transition into Sedentary Agriculturalism and the implications for societal order while t

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I am not, but will purchase and read asap. davew On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 12:30 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > Dave - > I think I have referenced these before but your anecdotes here remind me of > Jim Scott's "Against the Grain" and "The Art of Not Being Governed". I > wonder if you are familiar w

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Dave - I think I have referenced these before  but your anecdotes here remind me of Jim Scott's "Against the Grain" and "The Art of Not Being Governed".  I wonder if you are familiar with any of his work? - Steve On 5/7/21 8:02 AM, Prof David West wrote: > Russ, > > Your intuition is partly corr

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Further illustration of my ignorance in these areas. This discussion originated with the idea that we are oppressed by capitalism and money. My question still is, what is the (or at least *our*) alternative? Can you imagine converting our society into one without money? What could it possibly look

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Russ, Your intuition is partly correct: these societies, for the most part, were embedded in an extensive cultural web of kinship, norms, rituals, world-view — like any culture or any people. It appears to us that their culture was more pervasive, expressed more consistently, and "enforced" mor

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Thanks, David. I have no background in Economic Anthropology and am interested in hearing about societies that function effectively without something like money. My intuition (perhaps wrong) is that the only ways to make that work over extended periods are rigid societal structures (enforced, perh

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Hi Pieter, Not that it matters (to anything), but No, zero support for Chomsky from me. He is the archetype of a bully and a demagogue. It was his MO in linguistics his entire career, a field that was susceptible to that sort of thing, and to which he has done great harm. It’s a shame, too, b

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Russ raised the question about alternatives to capitalism. A quick perusal of a good Economic Anthropology textbook can provide numerous examples. Many of which worked at a scale far greater than 150 people. Example: an Aboriginal economic system that incorporated multiple tribes in an area from

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

This larger issue of problematic sources for good ideas came up again the other night when someone chastised me for owning a Ford, because, you know, he donated to Hitler's campaign. It was the opposite of my argument that attacking a brand isn't attacking the person. In his case, he was attacki

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I have a little book On Anarchism by Noam Chomsky. Chomsky is IMO a very smart person and it's maybe worthwhile to pay attention to his ideas? Although I don't want to reject his ideas, my mind is open, I'm not convinced it will work out as intended. The problem is he offers anarchism as an idea

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Eric, You explained many of the problems in much more depth and detail than I did. Well done. Thanks. On Wed, May 5, 2021, 4:46 PM David Eric Smith wrote: > Yes, agreed, Russ, with amendments. > > I wrote some long awful thing on this yesterday and had the good manners > to delete without sendin

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Yes, agreed, Russ, with amendments. I wrote some long awful thing on this yesterday and had the good manners to delete without sending. I think capitalism isn’t even about money; there are two issues: capitalist property rights and monetary or financial layers in the economy. I know Glen doesn

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Well, there are smarter people than me, who know more about Marxism than I do, on this list. But it seems there are ~5 principles to guide it: • civilization is already a cooperative enterprise, it's just a matter of cooperation's extent/ubiquity • there's nothing supernatural, so all solutions

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Earlier, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ said: If we're stuck with capitalism, then I'm for UBI. If we can get out from under capitalism, then I'm not. Nick added: it is the "triumph" of capitalism to reduce all relationships to money. I wonder if this is not assuming that there is an alternative to what you are callin

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Yeah, I think it is safe to say that "huge costs" are a sign of progress in the same sense that smoke is a sign of fire. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GM

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

case for universal basic income UBI Is it also fair to say that human progress came at a huge cost to ourselves? -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I look forward to my next trip to Britain. It will be nice to sit back, relax, and let my sinister hand drive. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.l

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

> Agreed! One can have meaningless sex, but who wants to? Is that anything like gratuitous amounts of torque in your BMW? My Volt has silly amounts of torque, especially off the line and it is modulated to not allow tire slippage, but in spite of having a slightly difficult highway-entry I rarely

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Agreed! One can have meaningless sex, but who wants to? -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

f Prof David West Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:31 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI Ahhh Nick, Such limited vision. You may be correct vis-a-vis money (as nothing more than a pathological distortion — I have no experience) but are so wro

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Is it also fair to say that human progress came at a huge cost to ourselves? -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http:/

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

> > I find that argument compelling. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:11 PM &g

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:11 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI I'd

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

, … Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:45 PM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: R

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

ku.edu/nthompson/ > > *From:* Friam *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:45 PM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI > > *Diamond Age: Or, A Young Woman's Illustrated Primer* by Neal S

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

ambition. > > > > I pretty sure nobody has read it because, so far as I know, nobody has > been thus affected. Ergo, … > > > > Nick > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam *On

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI Diamond Age: Or, A Young Woman's Illustrated Primer by Neal Stephenson Required reading for any discussion of economics when the robots produce abundance, or things are too cheap to meter. Nick won'ty read,

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I also consumed DA on tape/CD and appreciated the reader as well, but a decade after it was written.   I read it (on paper) when it came out, mostly following up his Snow Crash which I did not discover until just as Diamond Age came out.   I was previously introduced to him via his eco-thriller Zod

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Well we can *imagine *both. Problem is actually getting either one. On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:05 PM Gary Schiltz wrote: > It's hard to imagine UBI in the United States, when you (we, before I > left) can't even get a universal health care system. > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 6:47 PM Gillian Densmo

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

It's hard to imagine UBI in the United States, when you (we, before I left) can't even get a universal health care system. On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 6:47 PM Gillian Densmore wrote: > We have a globe getting pimp slapped by a virus. People getting shit > canned for no other reason than breathing. WA

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I remember listening to "Diamond Age" as a book on tape while driving up the California 1, it was 10 or 12 tapes and the woman who read it did an amazing job. What a wonderful book. There have been a few books in my life that I feel have found me like the illustrated primer found Nell, a book that

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

*Diamond Age: Or, A Young Woman's Illustrated Primer* by Neal Stephenson Required reading for any discussion of economics when the robots produce abundance, or things are too cheap to meter. Nick won'ty read, pretty sure Steve and other already have. davew On Tue, May 4, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Ste

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

> I was following a car that had a bumper sticker that said, "Eat the Rich". I do understand that some of them are well marbled. - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfri

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

We have a globe getting pimp slapped by a virus. People getting shit canned for no other reason than breathing. WAstate and one other was/is back to full lockdown, Canada still is. The question isn't reely is UBI a good/bad idea but how fucking fast do we make it happen? and for how much. I'd submi

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

The simplest case for a UBI is current and past pandemics. Simply put that for some asinine reason our sense of maslow's hierarchy of needs has gone tits up fucked. On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 5:23 PM Frank Wimberly wrote: > A couple of facts that relate to some of the points raised. > > I was fol

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

A couple of facts that relate to some of the points raised. I was following a car that had a bumper sticker that said, "Eat the Rich". A man paid $50 million for a penthouse (5 story) in Manhattan. He committed suicide when he couldn't sell it for $35 million. His wife wanted to live where she

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

or a BIC? Hopefully, without bending an otherwise interesting thread, I will hint at what IMO might be a serious response to your troll. I was thinking about the rhizomatic nature of both category theory and semiotics. In both the first case, a la the Lawverian approach to foundations, and in the

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

On 5/4/21 4:11 PM, jon zingale wrote: > Whether de-objectification, projection pursuit, scaffold-hopping > , > or asignifying rupture, I am all for germs guiding what follows. Let > the capitalists see nails, for who here has

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Whether de-objectification, projection pursuit, scaffold-hopping , or asignifying rupture, I am all for germs guiding what follows. Let the capitalists see nails, for who here hasn't opened a beer with a hammer? -- Sent

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Yeah, I agree. But as the miscommunication about the dimension of simplices vs. orthogonal dimensionality seems to indicate, reduction need not imply linearity, and if reduction is used iteratively to discover interestingness, that provenance/method/algorithm need not be lost (1st order Markovia

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I'm glad I held back from throwing in my own $.002 on this topic earlier... I like the general arc it is on and is being articulated much more gesturally than I think I am capable of.   I can't say I *fully* follow Glen's use of reduction and reconstruction in technical detail well, but it suggests

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

""" The very little Marxism I know tells me that it is the "triumph" of capitalism to reduce all relationships to money. """ To reduce all relationships to money is an operation that seeks to objectify things via construal as scalar valuations. That is, two things are considered the same if they

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

ause it demanded I do things I did not want to do. Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 2:16 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

This bleeds back into my response to (c), which in essence was that we *need* diversity. One huge problem with technology is that tools bias the projects within which they're used. (To a hammer everything looks like a nail.) Hearkening to Ashby, if the diversity of the robots fails to match the

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

I speculate that there is hope for Glen's wish to have some revolutionary change to the current money-based system. With the technological progress that's happening right now all the products and services all of humanity will be provided in abundance by robots and AI without humans at such a low co

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Reduction. All things in moderation, including moderation. Reduction is a triumph, if it captures what you're looking for. And fiat currency has done great things for the world, a cultural technology that allows us to explore possibilities we wouldn't have otherwise explored. Financial instrumen

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

oxic. [end Rant] Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:00 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI In

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Well, it depends. My preference would be to replace our money-based subsistence on something else, some collectivist way of cooperating that differs fundamentally from the market-based way we think about these things. But that would be revolutionary, not evolutionary. And, unlike the Marxists, I

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Okay, I'm happy with that. It's just that on UBI we probably have very similar views. I also agree with the views expressed by the psychologytoday reference you gave above about You Are Not Your Work. But, maybe my reading of your comments are wrong? Do you support UBI? On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 18:

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

OK. Well, if Andrew were here, I'd be happy to discuss it with him. But he's not and you are. The link you sent is to Ben Shapiro's brand marketing channel. Anyone who wants Ben Shapiro to make more money, please watch it and hit those like and subscribe buttons. 8^D On 5/4/21 9:24 AM, Pieter

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

@Glen, I'm a supporter of UBI and mentioned a couple of points I came across from people that're against it. I don't claim to have all the answers and I am open to listen to the arguments of those against it, that's why I mentioned them, but I don't support those claims so I'm not going to defend t

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

In an attempt to answer my own question (a), I found this article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tracking-wonder/201903/you-are-not-your-work It's confirmation bias, for sure. But there are some interesting links. And I get to add "workism" to my basket of modern -isms, like scientism

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

Hm. OK. If you'd prefer to talk about UBI (instead of my postscript), how about responses to these points: On 5/4/21 6:35 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > a) How many people need employment for meaning? 10? 1M? How was that data > gathered? Where is that data? > > Worse yet, in a world defined such that y

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