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Peter Volkov wrote:
| Is there any reason why --as-needed is not enabled "by default"?
There's still about 18 open bugs on the tracker[1] for it. You can see
how many problems it had been causing by the huge number of blocking bugs.
I've been using
On Fri, 30 May 2008 10:55:51 +0400
Peter Volkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> В Чтв, 29/05/2008 в 11:02 +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò пишет:
> > I'm afraid that it will turn, for complex libraries like libexpat
> > and users not using --as-needed, the message telling you the
> > program cannot
Marius Mauch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> That's what `emerge @preserved-rebuild` does, or do you mean something
> different?
I meant something different, see the rst.
> Well, with preserve-libs the situation is this (using your example):
> - user upgrades expat, portage keeps libexpat.so.0 arou
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Mike Auty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Peter Volkov wrote:
> | Is there any reason why --as-needed is not enabled "by default"?
>
> There's still about 18 open bugs on the tracker[1] for it. You can see
> how many problems it had been causing by the huge number o
"Santiago M. Mola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> --as-needed breaking legitimate code is a problem, though. I wonder if
> we have that kind of code in any application in the tree and if we
> have some way to detect it.
You could be looking for code not supposed to work under Solaris or
Windows, a
Santiago M. Mola a écrit :
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Mike Auty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've been using it for a pretty long time now (probably a couple weeks
after Diego first blogged about it) and don't have many problems at all
(now), but every once in a while a version bump or a new
Rémi Cardona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> --as-needed breaks legitimate C++ code, I have yet to see it break
> plain C code (but I could be wrong).
This because C does not have constructors or static objects. I suppose I
can write a couple of C files that can present the problem, but really,
the
On Friday 30 May 2008 13:22:15 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> The only thing that can be broken by using --as-needed is code that
> assumes the order in calling the .init sections of a set of shared
> objects. Such an order is not only changed by --as-needed usage but by
> any other change in t
David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It's not just the order, it also breaks things that rely on the .init
> section being called at all to register themselves with the core
> application (with --as-needed, the .so doesn't get loaded in the first
> place, so it doesn't get a chance to run
On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:29:49 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) wrote:
> David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > It's not just the order, it also breaks things that rely on
> > the .init section being called at all to register themselves with
> > the core application (with -
On Friday 30 May 2008 17:29:49 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> This really is backward, solution-wise: you expect the "core
> application" to know enough of the plugins to link them together, but
> not enough to call their init functions...
Why should it call their init functions, when a static
This is more of a reminder email than anything else, in my capacity as
the VCS administrator for Gentoo.
Recently, some folk have wondered if we can come up with a better name
than 'overlays', as a lot of the newer repositories aren't actually
overlays of the tree, but rather independent developme
David Leverton wrote:
On Friday 30 May 2008 17:29:49 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
This really is backward, solution-wise: you expect the "core
application" to know enough of the plugins to link them together, but
not enough to call their init functions...
Why should it call their init func
On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:13:32 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Talk to the upstream about this, probably getting a satisfying
> solution isn't that difficult.
The solution is to use --as-needed in the same way that -ffast-math is
used: only with applications specifically designed to
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
--as-needed is fundamentally broken by design and causes legitimate code
to break.
Basically C++ quasi-standard corner cases nobody uses, that happen to
work on ELF only and that should be removed in the next revision of 0x ?
Implicit plugin loading isn't exactly a san
On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:29:26 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > --as-needed is fundamentally broken by design and causes legitimate
> > code to break.
>
> Basically C++ quasi-standard corner cases nobody uses, that happen to
> work on ELF only and that shou
On R, 2008-05-30 at 20:20 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:13:32 +0200
> Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Talk to the upstream about this, probably getting a satisfying
> > solution isn't that difficult.
>
> The solution is to use --as-needed in the same way that -
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:31:22 +0300
Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On R, 2008-05-30 at 20:20 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:13:32 +0200
> > Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Talk to the upstream about this, probably getting a satisfying
> > > solutio
On R, 2008-05-30 at 22:37 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:31:22 +0300
> Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On R, 2008-05-30 at 20:20 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:13:32 +0200
> > > Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Talk to
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:47:44 +0300
Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Paludis is fine with as-needed. But hey, don't let reality get in
> > the way of your pathetic attempts at turning everything into Paludis
> > bashing.
>
> It happens to be the only package that I know of that couldn't
On 22:53 Fri 30 May , Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:47:44 +0300
> Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The story that matters here is, that a C++ corner case that does not
> > work on 0.01% of packages with --as-needed and breaks on non-ELF
> > platforms, should not ca
On Fri, 30 May 2008 15:07:43 -0700
Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 22:53 Fri 30 May , Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:47:44 +0300
> > Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The story that matters here is, that a C++ corner case that does
> > > not work
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:47:44 +0300
Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Paludis is fine with as-needed. But hey, don't let reality get in
the way of your pathetic attempts at turning everything into Paludis
bashing.
It happens to be the only package that I know of tha
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:08:21 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Except that Paludis is fine with --as-needed.
>
> Ok, then everything in the tree is covered and we can move to having
> --as-needed as default.
Is the next version of everything in the tree covered? Have you made
sur
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 15:07:43 -0700
Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 22:53 Fri 30 May , Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:47:44 +0300
Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The story that matters here is, that a C++ corner case that does
not
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
I'd bet you could get a pretty long way by shoving -ffast-math into
CFLAGS by default before anyone would notice...
Non sequitur. We are talking about --as-needed, not -ffast-math.
--
Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:13:58 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know exactly which standard -ffast-math violates (IEEE/ISO floating
> point spec) and how (the man page is quite complete about this),
> --as-needed doesn't have any warning about this, there isn't any
> standard that
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 12:26:44AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:13:58 +0200
> Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I know exactly which standard -ffast-math violates (IEEE/ISO floating
> > point spec) and how (the man page is quite complete about this),
> > --as-n
On Fri, 30 May 2008 16:43:38 -0700
Brian Harring <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ISO/IEC 14882:1998 section 3.7.1 paragraph 2.
>
> Might want to confirm it's in 14882:2003, since the '98 was
> withdrawn... ~harring
It's in all the way up to the current 0x draft. It even has the same
section and pa
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:13:58 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know exactly which standard -ffast-math violates (IEEE/ISO floating
point spec) and how (the man page is quite complete about this),
--as-needed doesn't have any warning about this, there isn't a
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:54:45 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ISO/IEC 14882:1998 section 3.7.1 paragraph 2.
>
> "If an object of static storage duration has initialization or a
> destructor with side effects, it shall not be eliminated even if
> it appears to be unused, except th
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
Linking with as-needed is the stage in which the elimination occurs,
and as-needed is the cause of the elimination. So yes, it is related.
The linker just does bookkeeping, if there aren't symbols used, the
library won't be in the list.
Still, PE and ELF are older tha
On Sat, 31 May 2008 02:17:15 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Linking with as-needed is the stage in which the elimination occurs,
> > and as-needed is the cause of the elimination. So yes, it is
> > related.
>
> The linker just does bookkeeping, if there
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:47:44 +0300
Mart Raudsepp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Portage developers - is there anything we should do to get --as-needed
> to make.conf.example and other places, beyond fixing the known bugs on
> the appropriate bug tracker?
make.conf.example is no big deal, that's jus
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
Which is where the design flaw is -- as-needed incorrectly assumes that
the only type of dependency between shared objects is a name
dependency. This isn't true with C++ static initialisers.
I don't see why should be different than abusing .init in any other
language tha
On Sat, 31 May 2008 03:03:42 +0200
Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Which is where the design flaw is -- as-needed incorrectly assumes
> > that the only type of dependency between shared objects is a name
> > dependency. This isn't true with C++ static initialise
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 15:07:43 -0700
Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I see that a number of packages in the tree explicitly filter
-ffast-math.
That's mostly from the bad old days when users were encouraged to use
silly CFLAGS...
1. _When_ was this?
2. _Who_ w
While we can continually loop around w/ the "--as-needed is evil since
c++ does this one odd thing occasionally" argument, why not hear from
the folks using it, specifically finding out what breaks in their
usage?
Ciaran: yes, just because the tree works now w/ --as-needed doesn't
mean that fu
On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:43:56 -0700
Brian Harring <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So... folks have pointed out a benefit to using --as-needed.
But they haven't. They've pointed out a flaw in libtool that is sort of
worked around sometimes at the expense of breaking things by using
as-needed. The corre
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 02:50:20AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:43:56 -0700
> Brian Harring <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So... folks have pointed out a benefit to using --as-needed.
>
> But they haven't. They've pointed out a flaw in libtool that is sort of
> worked aro
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:43:56 -0700
> Brian Harring <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So... folks have pointed out a benefit to using --as-needed.
>
> But they haven't. They've pointed out a flaw in libtool that is sort of
> w
On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:01:24 -0700
Brian Harring <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The correct solution is to fix libtool., but that's evidently
> > beyond the abilities of people who're only interested in increasing
> > their epenis size by throwing more silly options in config files.
>
> Then go do
On Sat, 31 May 2008 07:38:12 +0530
"Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1) You say the benefits haven't been pointed out, while several posts
> have already done so. You seem to be the only one pretending to be
> unaware of them.
No no no. The benefits described would be obtained by fix
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 07:38:12 +0530
> "Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 1) You say the benefits haven't been pointed out, while several posts
>> have already done so. You seem to be the only one pretending t
On Sat, 31 May 2008 07:53:05 +0530
"Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > No no no. The benefits described would be obtained by fixing
> > libtool. What you get from as-needed is a half-arsed
> > sometimes-working subset of those benefits. as-needed is not the
> > fix for the libtool pro
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2008 07:38:12 +0530
"Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
1) You say the benefits haven't been pointed out, while several posts
have already done so. You seem to be the only one pretending to be
unaware of them.
No no no. The benefits described wou
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Once again, you do not support your argument with anything but your
>> own word. Don't make me choke on the salt please :)
>
> Uhm. You're suggesting that the underlying issue is not a libtool
> problem? Or you're sugges
On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:27 +0530
"Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Fact: the underlying issue is a libtool bug.
>
> Fact: It can't be fixed easily and/or in a reasonable time-frame. Else
> someone would've done it -- heck you could've fixed it.
Untrue. The amount of effort that'
On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:49 -0500
Ravi Pinjala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Could you explain, for the benefit of us spectators, what these
> libtool problems are, and what cleaner solution you have in mind?
> It'd make this whole discussion a lot more comprehensible.
libtool links against depend
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:27 +0530
> "Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Fact: It can't be fixed easily and/or in a reasonable time-frame. Else
>> someone would've done it -- heck you could've fixed it.
>
> U
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 08:45:09AM +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
> On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Ciaran McCreesh
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 May 2008 08:28:27 +0530
> > "Nirbheek Chauhan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Fact: It works. Unlike your vapour-proposal to "fix libtool
many of these are low maintence ... i'd forgotten i was even listed under them
as i havent seen a bug report in a long time. some i added (well probably
too many) on a lark, so if they do end up being crappy and no one cares, i
guess that's why we have a tree cleaners group.
no herd:
app-admin
On Sat, 31 May 2008 02:17:48 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 03:03:42 +0200
> Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > > Which is where the design flaw is -- as-needed incorrectly assumes
> > > that the only type of dependency be
On Saturday 31 May 2008 00:16:31 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Ok, then everything in the tree is covered and we can move to having
> > --as-needed as default.
>
> Is the next version of everything in the tree covered? Have you made
> sure that software isn't merely working by fluke?
We interupt thi
В Птн, 30/05/2008 в 20:28 -0700, Brian Harring пишет:
> Either way, basically it's coming down to if gentoo wants to follow
> the definition of 'academic' right, or 'pragmatic' right. Exempting
> ciaran, vote seems to be pragmatic.
Well, although I've asked about problems with having --as-needed
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