On 14.10.20 18:41, Peter Schaffter wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, Johann Höchtl wrote:
Groff is certainly feature-rich, stable and polished with
great documentation. But I also value l8n, being able to
input utf8-characters directly into the source or easily
switch fonts. Not to mention PAO (p
Hello Johann,
Johann Höchtl wrote:
> Your help would be very appreciated. BTW How comes that section headings
> work as a forward reference? Can I move with utmac the complete TOC to
> the frontmatter without using psutils or the likes?
The makefile, in the utmac/demo, runs three passes of roff
Hello Johann,
Johann Höchtl wrote:
> .../neatroff/roff -mu-fonts -mus para.tr | ../neatpost/pdf -pa4 > out.pdf
u-fonts only contains macros shared by all fonts and does nothing by
itself, you should use u-libertine or u-biolinum instead:
roff -mus -mu-libertine para.tr | pdf -pa4 > out.p
On 21.10.20 22:21, Wim Stockman wrote:
maybe you can start by reading the book.
it has new life on github.
https://github.com/larrykollar/Unix-Text-Processing
Thank you for the link. However I am specifically asking the top-poster
Pierre-Jean how he achieves the following in his utmac-macro
maybe you can start by reading the book.
it has new life on github.
https://github.com/larrykollar/Unix-Text-Processing
Op wo 21 okt. 2020 om 21:47 schreef Johann Höchtl :
>
> On 19.10.20 14:14, Johann Höchtl wrote:
> >
> > On 15.10.20 16:37, Pierre-Jean Fichet wrote:
> >> To fetch for ideas on h
On 19.10.20 14:14, Johann Höchtl wrote:
On 15.10.20 16:37, Pierre-Jean Fichet wrote:
To fetch for ideas on how to do this or that, maybe can I also point
to my macros, as they'll work with neatroff too, and implement a lot
of things: https://github.com/pjfichet/utmac/
I installed utmac by
> OK, I’ve put the 1.0 sources up on GitHub:
> https://github.com/larrykollar/Unix-Text-Processing
Following up: John Gardner and Deri James sent pull requests
to get us up to UTP 1.1, and that’s what is now in main.
Note that you’ll need groff 1.22 or newer to format UTP 1.1,
as it uses -Tpdf
On 15.10.20 16:37, Pierre-Jean Fichet wrote:
To fetch for ideas on how to do this or that, maybe can I also point
to my macros, as they'll work with neatroff too, and implement a lot
of things: https://github.com/pjfichet/utmac/
I installed utmac by downloading it and copying all .tmac - fil
> On Oct 16, 2020, at 6:49 PM, Deri wrote:
>
> On Friday, 16 October 2020 04:23:21 BST Larry Kollar wrote:
>>> There is a version with clickable contents and index here:-
>>>
>>> https://github.com/DeriJames/UTP-1.1/raw/master/utp_book.pdf
>>
>> Oh, cool. I vaguely remember you doing that.
>
On Oct 14 12:41:35, pe...@schaffter.ca wrote:
> What difficulties do you have entering UTF8 directly into the
> source? I've produced groff documents in most of the Western
> European and Scandinavian languages with direct UTF8 input. Are
> your troubles with languages other than those?
For inst
On Friday, 16 October 2020 04:23:21 BST Larry Kollar wrote:
> > There is a version with clickable contents and index here:-
> >
> > https://github.com/DeriJames/UTP-1.1/raw/master/utp_book.pdf
>
> Oh, cool. I vaguely remember you doing that.
>
> Maybe we should throw our sources onto Github?
Hi
>
> Maybe we should throw our sources onto Github?
Please do.
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 14:23, Larry Kollar wrote:
>
> Deri wrote:
>
> > The UTP Revival Project recreated the source code because Tim and
> > Sale
> >> were unable to locate a copy of the original source. It is located at:
> >>
> >
Deri wrote:
> The UTP Revival Project recreated the source code because Tim and
> Sale
>> were unable to locate a copy of the original source. It is located at:
>>
>>http://home.windstream.net/kollar/utp/
>
>
> There is a version with clickable contents and index here:-
>
> https:/
Damian McGuckin wrote:
>
> The UTP Revival Project recreated the source code because Tim and Sale were
> unable to locate a copy of the original source. It is located at:
>
> http://home.windstream.net/kollar/utp/
>
> What an undertaking!
>
> There is a sentence on that page
>
>
Hi James
> On Oct 14, 2020, at 12:08 PM, James K. Lowden
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:13:39 -0400
> Federico Lucifredi wrote:
>
>>> For man pages, what you need is knowledge of the man macro package,
>>> originally written by James Clark [...]
>>
>> I removed the ?originally? bit, whi
Hello alls,
I'm a neatroff user, and feels, as a result, compelled to give my
opinion. I'll second everyone stating that "Nroff/Troff User Manual"
(CSTR 54) is the manual of choice. It's 37 pages of well written
documentation, and should cover all your needs:
https://www.troff.org/54.pdf
Then, yo
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Mike Bianchi wrote:
Isn't it sad that nothing more modern is available?
Since it is open source,
it might make sense to have a team produce a groff version?
I did follow up with that site. In case you missed it:
http://home.windstream.net/kollar/utp/
And Deri
Peter Schaffter did make this shell script for font installation available on
his website :
http://schaffter.ca/mom/mom-05.html#install-font
Regards, Thomas
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Le mercredi, octobre 14, 2020 8:16 PM, Johann Höchtl
a écrit :
>
>
> On 14.10.20 18:41, Peter Schafft
On 14.10.20 18:41, Peter Schaffter wrote:
Also not sure what
you mean by "easily switch fonts." Since '.ft " is as easy as
it gets, I assume you mean something else.
I have been imprecise. By switching fonts I actually meant making fonts
available to groff, which requires fontforge to ge
Morten Bo Johansen wrote in
:
|On 2020-10-14 Peter Schaffter wrote:
|
|> What difficulties do you have entering UTF8 directly into the
|> source? I've produced groff documents in most of the Western
|> European and Scandinavian languages
|
|I thought we Scandinavians were also considered p
On 2020-10-14 Peter Schaffter wrote:
> What difficulties do you have entering UTF8 directly into the
> source? I've produced groff documents in most of the Western
> European and Scandinavian languages
I thought we Scandinavians were also considered part of Western
Europe, including our language
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, Johann Höchtl wrote:
> Groff is certainly feature-rich, stable and polished with
> great documentation. But I also value l8n, being able to
> input utf8-characters directly into the source or easily
> switch fonts. Not to mention PAO (paragraph-at-once) from
> Knuth-Plass.
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:13:39 -0400
Federico Lucifredi wrote:
> > For man pages, what you need is knowledge of the man macro package,
> > originally written by James Clark [...]
>
> I removed the ?originally? bit, which I believe corrects the flaw (if
> I am reading you correctly).
If I may,
Hello Ingo,
> On Oct 14, 2020, at 9:06 AM, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> [..]
>
>> Interesting. As far as I can tell, the origin of that statement
>> is in man 7 groff_man:
>> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/trusty/man7/groff_man.7.html
>
> That document says:
>
> DESCRIPTION
> The man macros u
Hi Werner,
Werner LEMBERG wrote on Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 03:27:24PM +0200:
> Ingo Schwarze wrote:
>> Admittedly, it would be better to also credit the original authors,
>> not only the authors of the GNU reimplementation, as it is done
>> here, for example:
>>
>> https://mandoc.bsd.lv/man/man.7.
> Isn't it sad that nothing more modern is available?
Since it is open source,
it might make sense to have a team produce a groff version?
Mike
Sent from my Adesso PCK-308UW.
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:26:27AM +1100, Greg 'g
> Admittedly, it would be better to also credit the original authors,
> not only the authors of the GNU reimplementation, as it is done
> here, for example:
>
> https://mandoc.bsd.lv/man/man.7.html
Mhmm, my name is missing...
Anyway, there are some serious typos on that page, for example
M
On Wednesday, 14 October 2020 03:20:17 BST Damian McGuckin wrote:
> The UTP Revival Project recreated the source code because Tim and
Sale
> were unable to locate a copy of the original source. It is located at:
>
> http://home.windstream.net/kollar/utp/
There is a version with clickabl
Hi Federico,
Federico Lucifredi wrote on Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:21:49AM -0400:
> On Oct 14, 2020, at 7:10 AM, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
>> Finally, there is an obvious, rather serious error. I do not think
>> misattribution should be taken lightly:
>>
>> the man macro package, originally written
Hello Ingo,
> On Oct 14, 2020, at 7:10 AM, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
>
> Finally, there is an obvious, rather serious error. I do not think
> misattribution should be taken lightly:
>
> the man macro package, originally written by James Clark
>
> The correct statement is:
>
> The man language f
Hello Raf,
>
> Also, when it comes to history of *roff from the UNIX manpages
> angle, this[0] is a good place to visit.
>
> [0] https://manpages.bsd.lv/history.html
>
That is awesome, it is one of the best stories of man yet (there was a good
conference talk a few years back as well, I will
Dear Peter,
while I first thought a follow-up question would warrant a separate thread,
now as you mention mom, I feel comfortable not to wander astray.
Of course I discovered mom and wow it looks feature-rich and very polished.
I wonder how big of an effort it would be to make it "portable".
Gr
Hi Federico,
Federico Lucifredi via wrote on Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 08:04:10PM -0400:
> For man page writing, I collected the available resources in this
> blog post a while ago - happy to hear about new resources.
If you are curious about new resources, you could mention the
concept of semantic m
Hi,
Damian McGuckin wrote on Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 11:41:59AM +1100:
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> But that brings us back to where we came in: where is there
>> well-structured documentation for the current groff?
> Agreed. It is not there.
I wonder where this myth is co
While we are on this topic, anyone know where there is a copy of
Writers Workbench
Thanks - Damian
Pacific Engineering Systems International, 277-279 Broadway, Glebe NSW 2037
Ph:+61-2-8571-0847 .. Fx:+61-2-9692-9623 | unsolicited email not wanted here
Views & opinions here are mine an
>
> The UTP Revival Project recreated the source code because Tim and Sale
> were unable to locate a copy of the original source.
Does anybody know of a similar effort to recreate the source code of the
last revision of CSTR #54? (November 1992).
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 13:20, Damian McGuckin w
>
> I learned troff entirely from ctsr54. It is not for nothing that
> it remains the canonical starting point for exploring groff.
I strongly second this. Newcomers should at least be comfortable changing
fonts, adjusting margins, and controlling paragraph filling/adjustment.
Then they'll move
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Damian McGuckin wrote:
Would O'Reilly release the source code of the book so it could be updated?
The UTP Revival Project recreated the source code because Tim and Sale
were unable to locate a copy of the original source. It is located at:
http://home.windstream
On Tue, 13 Oct 2020, Peter Schaffter wrote:
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, Damian McGuckin wrote:
How many people use features of 'groff' that are not in 'troff'?
The mom macros rely heavily on extensions to groff that were implemented
during Werner's term. Since many (most?) new groff users these d
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, Damian McGuckin wrote:
> How many people use features of 'groff' that are not in 'troff'?
The mom macros rely heavily on extensions to groff that were
implemented during Werner's term. Since many (most?) new groff
users these days gravitate towards mom, I'd say quite a lot o
> About the only thing I like about Tex better is it does
> multiple passes so you can do forward references.
> Troff makes that hard but it is doable.
I don't think TeX actually does that by itself. *You* have
to call TeX multiple times.
Forward references work by writing the required informa
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
On Wednesday, 14 October 2020 at 11:12:26 +1100, Damian McGuckin wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
I do, notably the PostScript display requests.
If you mean the
\X'ps: file '
OK. Point taken although older t
I'd like to second this sentiment. Learning troff itself is for people
who want to write macro package[s]. If you just want to format stuff,
you pick a macro package and learn that.
Personally, I've tried -ms, then tried -me, I went back to -ms.
-ms covers most of the bases and it is pretty simp
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 01:04:10AM BST, Federico Lucifredi via wrote:
> Hi Johann,
> If you confined yourself to writing man pages, you do not need to learn the
> whole of Troff, and you can limit yourself to a more friendly subset — and
> copying from the many examples found on a *nix system s
On Wednesday, 14 October 2020 at 11:12:26 +1100, Damian McGuckin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>> I do, notably the PostScript display requests.
>
> If you mean the
>
> \X'ps: file '
>
> OK. Point taken although older troff could handle that also from
> memory
So one thing I use a lot is something I got James to add to pic, the
`i'th last thing. Here is some actual pic source where I used that:
for i = 1 to units by 1 do {
line <-> dashed from `i'th [].C.s - (.10, 0) to \
last box.nw + (i/(units+1)*w, 0)
Hi Johann,
If you confined yourself to writing man pages, you do not need to learn the
whole of Troff, and you can limit yourself to a more friendly subset — and
copying from the many examples found on a *nix system surely helps ;-)
For man page writing, I collected the available resources i
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
I do, notably the PostScript display requests.
If you mean the
\X'ps: file '
OK. Point taken although older troff could handle that also from memory.
But it is so long ago, I cannot remember how. That was in the days when
the Postsc
On Wednesday, 14 October 2020 at 10:36:45 +1100, Damian McGuckin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>> An excellent book, and one that I have used a lot. But nobody can claim
>> that it's up-to-date (it predates groff), and there are many features in
>> groff that weren't i
Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote in
<20201013232627.gb24...@eureka.lemis.com>:
|On Tuesday, 13 October 2020 at 22:49:03 +0200, J.-J. wrote:
|> Le mardi 13 octobre 2020 à 14:41 +0200, Johann Höchtl a écrit :
|>> * What would be a good starting point (tutorial) into troff and its
|>> core principles?
On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
An excellent book, and one that I have used a lot. But nobody can claim
that it's up-to-date (it predates groff), and there are many features in
groff that weren't in the troff version described. Isn't it sad that
nothing more modern is availab
On Tuesday, 13 October 2020 at 22:49:03 +0200, J.-J. wrote:
> Le mardi 13 octobre 2020 à 14:41 +0200, Johann Höchtl a écrit :
>> * What would be a good starting point (tutorial) into troff and its
>> core principles?
>>
>> * What is the canonical documentation of troff all the existing
>> implement
Hi,
Here is in my opinion the best book on the subject
(and it's now FREE!) :
https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/utp/
Le mardi 13 octobre 2020 à 14:41 +0200, Johann Höchtl a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I am just a casual dabbler who is somehow fascinated by text
> processing
>
>
> I am using neatroff -
> So my question is:
>
> * What would be a good starting point (tutorial) into troff
> and its core principles?
>
> * What is the canonical documentation of troff all the
> existing implementations seem to derive from and describe
> their deltas in their respective documentation?
The an
Hi,
I am just a casual dabbler who is somehow fascinated by text processing
I am using neatroff - It seems to be the most actively developed and has
some nice modern features like paragraph-at-once formatting and utf8
support out of the box.
Having said that, it seems that all troff implem
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