[Haskell-cafe] python under attack. ??Haskell??

Please see http://pyfound.blogspot.in/2013/02/python-trademark-at-risk-in-europe-we.html I cannot say that I understand whats really going on The one thing that I get is that there was some minor neglect a decade or more ago. Maybe there are things that Haskell needs to

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Chris Smith wrote: > > > Sometimes I wish for a -fphp flag that would turn some type errors > > > into warnings. Example: > > > > > > v.hs:8:6: > > > Couldn't match expected type `[a]' against inferred type `()' > > > In the first argument of `a', namely `y' > > > In the expression: a

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 29 Apr 2011, at 10:42, Ben Lippmeier wrote: > > On 29/04/2011, at 6:08 PM, Malcolm Wallace wrote: > >> On 29 Apr 2011, at 05:38, Ben Lippmeier wrote: >> >>> Laziness at the value level causes space leaks, >> >> This is well-worn folklore, but a bit misleading. > > :-) Like permanent m

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 29/04/2011, at 6:08 PM, Malcolm Wallace wrote: > On 29 Apr 2011, at 05:38, Ben Lippmeier wrote: > >> Laziness at the value level causes space leaks, > > This is well-worn folklore, but a bit misleading. :-) Like permanent markers in the hands of children causes suffering. It's not a ta

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 29 Apr 2011, at 05:38, Ben Lippmeier wrote: > Laziness at the value level causes space leaks, This is well-worn folklore, but a bit misleading. Most of my recent space leaks have been caused by excessive strictness. Space leaks occur in all kinds of programs and languages, and I am not c

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote: > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:38 PM, Ben Lippmeier wrote: >> Laziness at the value level causes space leaks, and laziness at the type >> level causes mind leaks. Neither are much fun. >> > If the designers could find a way to support laziness

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:19, Gracjan Polak wrote: > Sometimes I wish for a -fphp flag that would turn some type > errors into warnings. > [...] > GHC could substitute 'y = error "Couldn't match expected type > `[a]' against inferred type `()'"' and compile anyway. PHP doesn't really do dynami

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:38 PM, Ben Lippmeier wrote: > > On 27/04/2011, at 7:30 PM, Henning Thielemann wrote: > > > "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, > > then Python must be even greater, > > since it is lazy at the type level." > > Laziness at the value level causes space leak

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 27/04/2011, at 7:30 PM, Henning Thielemann wrote: > "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, > then Python must be even greater, > since it is lazy at the type level." Laziness at the value level causes space leaks, and laziness at the type level causes mind leaks. Neither are much

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

By reading John Hughes's paper "Why Functional Programming Matters" it is easy to understand why lazy evaluation is great, I don't see that kind of benefits with lazy typing. On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Henning Thielemann wrote: > > I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) > >  "If Has

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Dan, I believe there was some work on this functionality for GHC some time ago (agda-like goals for GHC, where ? in agda merely becomes 'undefined' in haskell.) See: https://github.com/sebastiaanvisser/ghc-goals This work was done a few years ago during a hackathon (the 09 Utrecht hackathon.) Th

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Dan Doel wrote: > (Sorry if you get this twice, Ertugrul; and if I reply to top. I'm > stuck with the gmail interface and I'm not used to it.) > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote: > > I don't see any problem with this. Although I usual

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

(Sorry if you get this twice, Ertugrul; and if I reply to top. I'm stuck with the gmail interface and I'm not used to it.) On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote: > I don't see any problem with this.  Although I usually have a bottom-up > approach, so I don't do this too often

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 11-04-27 05:44 PM, serialhex wrote: in ruby they use what some call "duck typing" if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck. Python and Javascript also do duck typing. Haskell does Functor typing. A Functor is something that provides an "fmap" method. List does it, so

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Apr 28, 2011, at 11:27 AM, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote: Gracjan Polak wrote: Ketil Malde malde.org> writes: In Haskell, I often need to add stubs of "undefined" in order to do this. I don't mind, since it is often very useful to say *something* about the particular piece - e.g. I add the

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Apr 28, 2011 9:25 AM, "Ertugrul Soeylemez" wrote: > > > > Sometimes I wish for a -fphp flag that would turn some type errors > > into warnings. Example: > > > > v.hs:8:6: > > Couldn't match expected type `[a]' against inferred type `()' > > In the first argument of `a', namely `y' > >

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Gracjan Polak wrote: > Ketil Malde malde.org> writes: > > > In Haskell, I often need to add stubs of "undefined" in order to do > > this. I don't mind, since it is often very useful to say > > *something* about the particular piece - e.g. I add the type > > signature, establishing the shape of

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Ketil Malde malde.org> writes: > > In Haskell, I often need to add stubs of "undefined" in order to do > this. I don't mind, since it is often very useful to say *something* > about the particular piece - e.g. I add the type signature, establishing > the shape of the missing piece without bother

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 11-04-27 05:30 AM, Henning Thielemann wrote: I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, then Python must be even greater, since it is lazy at the type level." Using Data.Dynamic, Haskell has a story for laziness at the type level, too. Hask

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

so, as a n00b to haskell i can't say much about its laziness, and not knowing much about how python works i'm about the same there. though i do know ruby, and afaik ruby doesn't _care_ what type something is, just if it can do something. example from the rails framework: #--- class NilClass

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Alexander Solla comments my comment : Alright, my turn. I never wanted to write non-terminating programs (what for?), Daemons/servers/console interfaces/streaming clients? Come on, not THIS kind of non-termination. This has little to do with strictness/laziness, I think. Endless loop

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk < jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr> wrote: > > Thomas Davie wrote: >> >>> This completely misses what laziness gives Haskell – it gives a way of >>> completing a smaller number of computations than it otherwise would have to >>> at run time. (...)

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Thomas Davie wrote: This completely misses what laziness gives Haskell – it gives a way of completing a smaller number of computations than it otherwise would have to at run time. (...) Tony Morris continues the ping-pong: This is not what laziness gives us. Rather, it gives us terminating

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

2011/4/27 MigMit : > It would be, if only it checked the (necessary) types during compile time. As > it is now, it seems like a claim that C is lazy just because any pointer can > be null. Strictness analysis is only an optimization, you don't need it to be lazy in the term-level. However Pytho

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

It would be, if only it checked the (necessary) types during compile time. As it is now, it seems like a claim that C is lazy just because any pointer can be null. Отправлено с iPhone Apr 27, 2011, в 13:30, Henning Thielemann написал(а): > > I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) >

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 27/04/11 20:02, Thomas Davie wrote: > This completely misses what laziness gives Haskell – it gives a way of > completing a smaller number of computations than it otherwise would have to > at run time. The hope being that this speeds up the calculation of the > result after the overhead of l

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

On 27 Apr 2011, at 10:30, Henning Thielemann wrote: > > I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) > > "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, > then Python must be even greater, > since it is lazy at the type level." > > Dynamically typed languages only check types if they have

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

2011/4/27 Ketil Malde : > Henning Thielemann writes: > That "Haskell is great because of its laziness" is arguable, see Robert > Harper's blog for all the arguing. (http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/) I think that author sin't quite right there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell_%28program

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

Henning Thielemann writes: > I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) > > "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, >then Python must be even greater, >since it is lazy at the type level." Well, this is indeed (an elegant reformulation of) a common objection, namely that Pyth

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

2011/4/27 Henning Thielemann : > > I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) > >  "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, >   then Python must be even greater, >   since it is lazy at the type level." > > Dynamically typed languages only check types if they have to, that is if > expressi

[Haskell-cafe] Python is lazier than Haskell

I like to apply for the quote of the week. :-) "If Haskell is great because of its laziness, then Python must be even greater, since it is lazy at the type level." Dynamically typed languages only check types if they have to, that is if expressions are actually computed. Does this prov

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

> BTW, after a -O2 compilation, fib' is apparently as fast a fib. The compiler is your friend. :o) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

[Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Cristiano Paris wrote: > ... > Now, to confirm my hypothesis, I wrote a slight different version of > fib, like follows: > > fib' n = 1:1:(fib' n) `plus` (tail $ fib' n) where plus = zipWith (+) > > i.e. I inserted a fictious argument n in the definition of fib'. >

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Thomas Davie wrote: > > Memoization is not a feature of lazyness.  If you can do it in such a way > that you don't waste significant amount of RAM, then it may be a nice > optimisation, and an alternative evaluation strategy, but it would not be > lazy. Thank you

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

On 17 Jul 2009, at 12:41, Cristiano Paris wrote: Thank you all for your answers and sorry for the delay I'm writing this message but before replying, I wanted to be sure to understand your arguments! Now, I'm starting to get into this "tying the knot" thing and understand why the Haskell versi

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

Thank you all for your answers and sorry for the delay I'm writing this message but before replying, I wanted to be sure to understand your arguments! Now, I'm starting to get into this "tying the knot" thing and understand why the Haskell version of fib ties the knot while my Python version does

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

Robert Greayer wrote: > Isn't tying the knot (in the way 'fib' does) straightforward with closures > a la Python/Ruby/Smalltalk (without mutation)? > Even in a syntactically clumsy language like Java, a > tying-the-knot implementation equivalent to the canonical Haskell one is > not difficult, e.g.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Max Rabkin wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Cristiano > Paris wrote: >> fib = 1:1:fib `plus` (tail fib) where plus = zipWith (+) > ... > ... > This indicates that you think tying the knot should be impossible in > Python. In my opinion this is not the case.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Cristiano Paris wrote: > fib = 1:1:fib `plus` (tail fib) where plus = zipWith (+) > > Of course, this was something I already encountered when exploring the > Y-combinator. Anyhow, I tried to translate this implementation to > Python using Iterators and this is what

[Haskell-cafe] Python vs Haskell in tying the knot

Hi, as pointed out in this list, it seems that a "tying the knot" example would be the one better explaining the power of Haskell's lazy-by-default approach against Python+Iterator's approach to laziness. So, in these days I'm trying to grasp the meaning of this "tying the knot" concept which see

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

>Bjorn Lisper wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >>Finally I found some time to reply to this posting. A couple of years ago we >>did something called "Data Field Haskell", which is Haskell extended with a >>generalized form of arrays called data fields. Much of the purpose was to >>investigate convenient and g

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Bjorn Lisper wrote: Hi all, Finally I found some time to reply to this posting. A couple of years ago we did something called "Data Field Haskell", which is Haskell extended with a generalized form of arrays called data fields. Much of the purpose was to investigate convenient and general syntax fo

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

On Wed, 18 May 2005, Bjorn Lisper wrote: forall (i,j) -> i + j, a Vandermonde matrix This does not look like a Vandermonde http://mathworld.wolfram.com/VandermondeMatrix.html If you take reciprocals you obtain almost a Hilbert matrix. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HilbertMatrix.html __

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Hi all, Finally I found some time to reply to this posting. A couple of years ago we did something called "Data Field Haskell", which is Haskell extended with a generalized form of arrays called data fields. Much of the purpose was to investigate convenient and general syntax for array constructio

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:06:51 +0200 > From: Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Michael Vanier comments my defense of Matlab: > > >>I used objects, and even a lot of functional > >>constructs. I don't see any reason to call it a creeping horror. > >>It is quite homogeneous and simple,

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Daniel Carrera wrote: This might be a strange question to ask on a Haskell list, but I do want to hear your opinions. What do you think of Python? I learnt it some years ago to do some simple text processing. Eventually I used it for three small projects. I learnt to hate dynamic typing, I learn

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacques Carette writes: > Jerzy Karczmarczuk wrote: >> Syntax for 3D arrays? >> Give me one single language where this is natural and immediate. > > I can think of 3: Mathematica, Maple and APL. I can't see how Maple makes things more *natural and immediate* than Matlab

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Tim Rowe writes: On 5/11/05, Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Give me one single language where [3-d arrays are] natural and immediate. I don't know how Matlab does it, but I find the C++ standard library vector > > entirely intuitive (apart, perhaps, for the need for those two spa

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Samuel Bronson writes about Matlab: I had to use it a bit for a class and it was *PURE PAIN* beyond the simplest of things. With my full respect, this is your problem. My students, with some guidance, managed to implement a small automatic differentiation package in it, and they are still alive

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

On 11/05/05, Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael Vanier comments my defense of Matlab: > > >>I used objects, and even a lot of functional > >>constructs. I don't see any reason to call it a creeping horror. > >>It is quite homogeneous and simple, and is decently interfaced. > >

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

On Wed, 11 May 2005, Jerzy Karczmarczuk wrote: > Pierre Barbier de Reuille wrote about Python and lambdas: >> Well, I would not recommand using lambda functions ! The main reason >> is they are limited in that they only accept expressions (ie. not >> statements) and you can end up with very ugly

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Jacques Carette writes: Jerzy Karczmarczuk wrote: Syntax for 3D arrays? Give me one single language where this is natural and immediate. I can think of 3: Mathematica, Maple and APL. Well, you are the village specialist on Maple here,so I won't argue too long, but kill me, I can't see how Maple m

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Jerzy Karczmarczuk a écrit : Pierre Barbier de Reuille wrote about Python and lambdas: Well, I would not recommand using lambda functions ! The main reason is they are limited in that they only accept expressions (ie. not statements) and you can end up with very ugly things (mainly because of t

Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Hello Jerzy, Wednesday, May 11, 2005, 3:40:51 PM, you wrote: JK> I suppose that if somebody decides to use lambdas, he wants to do some JK> functional programming, no? well, i am use this all the way :) simplified example of one usage: (allocate, shrink) <- memoryAllocator buf size (buf,size) <

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Syntax for 3D arrays? Give me one single language where this is natural and immediate. I can think of 3: Mathematica, Maple and APL. But I hope you don't try to convince us that Mathematica is good at number crunching... For linear algebra, Maple, Mathe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Quinn Dunkan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Python has first class functions and lexical scoping, and encourages > higher-order functions, though to a much lesser degree than a real > functional language. It's lexical scoping is limited: - The syntax can be heavy, as you can't embed a function co

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote: Its good for small scripting tasks. Its good for string processing. I find the dynamic typing a pain. What's dynamic typing? I have a lady friend who wants to learn how to program. I just decided to teach her Python for practical reasons: Its a great first language for p

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Pierre Barbier de Reuille wrote about Python and lambdas: Well, I would not recommand using lambda functions ! The main reason is they are limited in that they only accept expressions (ie. not statements) and you can end up with very ugly things (mainly because of the lack of if-expressions). Oh

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Michael Vanier comments my defense of Matlab: I used objects, and even a lot of functional constructs. I don't see any reason to call it a creeping horror. It is quite homogeneous and simple, and is decently interfaced. It's incredibly inconsistent. To cite just one example, the syntax is gea

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

At 19:02 10/05/05 -0400, Daniel Carrera wrote: Hello, This might be a strange question to ask on a Haskell list, but I do want to hear your opinions. What do you think of Python? I think it's benefits are neatly summed up by this comment from Tim Berners-Lee, "Python is a language you can get int

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Daniel Carrera a écrit : Quinn Dunkan wrote: Python has first class functions and lexical scoping, and encourages higher-order functions, though to a much lesser degree than a real functional language. I was surprised to hear about first class functions and higher order functions. So I googled f

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:49:38 +0200 > From: Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Michael Vanier wrote: > > >I have enough problems convincing people to learn Scheme. I've > >even had people beg me to teach them Matlab as a first programming > >language, because that is the only languag

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Quinn Dunkan wrote: Python has first class functions and lexical scoping, and encourages higher-order functions, though to a much lesser degree than a real functional language. I was surprised to hear about first class functions and higher order functions. So I googled for a bit, and I found somet

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Daniel Carrera wrote: > Erik de Castro Lopo wrote: > > > Its good for small scripting tasks. Its good for string processing. > > I find the dynamic typing a pain. > > What's dynamic typing? I can't say it any better than this: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DynamicTyping Basically, types are dete

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Michael Vanier wrote: I have enough problems convincing people to learn Scheme. I've even had people beg me to teach them Matlab as a first programming language, because that is the only language that they needed to get their work done. Telling them that Matlab's programming language is a creepin

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Quoth Daniel Carrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: ... | I have a lady friend who wants to learn how to program. I just decided | to teach her Python for practical reasons: I think when you factor in practical reasons, it makes a lot of sense. Python's simplicity and suitability for beginners is vastly ov

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote: Its good for small scripting tasks. Its good for string processing. I find the dynamic typing a pain. What's dynamic typing? I have a lady friend who wants to learn how to program. I just decided to teach her Python for practical reasons: Its a great first language for

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:02:33 -0400 > From: Daniel Carrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hello, > > This might be a strange question to ask on a Haskell list, but I do want > to hear your opinions. What do you think of Python? > > To explain where this question is comming from: > > I have a lady

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

On 5/10/05, Daniel Carrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > This might be a strange question to ask on a Haskell list, but I do want > to hear your opinions. What do you think of Python? Python has first class functions and lexical scoping, and encourages higher-order functions, though to

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Daniel Carrera wrote: > Hello, > > This might be a strange question to ask on a Haskell list, but I do want > to hear your opinions. What do you think of Python? Its good for small scripting tasks. Its good for string processing. I find the dynamic typing a pain. > I have a lady friend who wan

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plugin FOR WHAT? Sorry. OpenOffice.org :-) To teach how to program in a structured way? Yes. To teach how to program functionally? Hm. In a primitive sense, why not, but seriously - no. There are plenty of methods which update in place some objects, say x.append(y), etc. Th

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

4) She's interested in writing an OOo plugin some day. Python can do that. Plugin FOR WHAT? For OOo (OpenOffice.org) Bob ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

Daniel Carrera writes: I have a lady friend who wants to learn how to program. I just decided to teach her Python for practical reasons: 1) Python has a nice IDE-ish thing. It's called "idle". It includes both a shell and an editor. The interface is simple and clear. There are others. PyCrust

[Haskell-cafe] Python?

Hello, This might be a strange question to ask on a Haskell list, but I do want to hear your opinions. What do you think of Python? To explain where this question is comming from: I have a lady friend who wants to learn how to program. I just decided to teach her Python for practical reasons: 1

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Python?

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Graham Klyne wrote: > At 20:55 25/10/04 +0200, Remi Turk wrote: > >P.S. Why do so many people (including me) seem to come to Haskell > > from Python? It can't be just the indentation, can it? ;) > > I did. (Or: from Java via Python.) > > I don't think it's the indenta

[Haskell-cafe] Python?

At 20:55 25/10/04 +0200, Remi Turk wrote: P.S. Why do so many people (including me) seem to come to Haskell from Python? It can't be just the indentation, can it? ;) I did. (Or: from Java via Python.) I don't think it's the indentation. At least, not *just* that. FWIW, I speculate: 1. Python