Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 01/16/2008 at 09:47 AM, "Kelman, Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >I agree. I think that a background in anything that is logically and >mathematical is the best training for programming. I once worked with a >fellow that had a degree in music. Although being a music

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In a message dated 1/16/2008 10:17:07 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: students with non-Computer Science backgrounds attempt a Master's degree. Some were more "natural" at it than others, and those with the following two undergraduate majors seemed the best able to

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 16 Jan 2008 07:47:20 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kelman, Tom) wrote: >I agree. I think that a background in anything that is logically and >mathematical is the best training for programming. I once worked with a >fellow that had a degree in music. Although being a musician requires >an artisti

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

At 09:47 AM 1/16/2008, you wrote: >> >... >> - >I agree. I think that a background in anything that is logically and >mathematical is the best training for programming. I once worked with a >f

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In a message dated 1/16/2008 9:47:29 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Although being a musician requires an artistic ability it is also very logical and mathematical. He was an excellent systems programmer. Mathematics, music, and foreign language ability are though

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> > > - > I will PARTLY agree with Clark on this. There a few aspects of Computer > Science that are important and useful, such as Data Structures. But I've > found that a background that is mo

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 01/14/2008 at 03:12 PM, Gary Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >UWaterloo allum, huh... Ever encounter 'P1'? It was a load of laughs. Of course, that wasn't what the author intended ;-) -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 01/14/2008 at 11:56 AM, Rick Fochtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >? There's More Than One Way To Do It is a very common phrase in the Perl community. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

Is a computer science education either necessary or desirable for doing systems programming? business programming? being a DBA or data administrator? As someone who has been a systems programmer and an applications programmer, the only IT cou

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main as well. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008b.html#2 Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? and related new post ... also in a.f.c ... about newly published

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

10:33 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers > of Tomorrow? > > This appeared yesterday: > http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=20560155 7 > > ---

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

tware Engineers of Tomorrow? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#46 Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#56 Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#5

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 15 Jan 2008 09:33:09 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: >This appeared yesterday: >http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205601557 > >--- >... >Americans don't appear to be rushing to gain the IT-related skills that >organizatio

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

This appeared yesterday: http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205601557 --- ... Americans don't appear to be rushing to gain the IT-related skills that organizations are looking for. The National Center for Education finds that only 13%

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

When people talk informally about "Computer Science Education" they tend to commingle very different topics: - how to educate computer scientists - those who teach "computer science" - those who advance the state of the art in tools such as - compilers - machine intelligence - how to e

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

Hi, I surrender : Do you guys get paid for the number of postings you make to public email lilsts ? Do you get hired based on the number of junk email jou can send all over the World ? Conclusion : There is no way that you can claim you are doing this accidently or that you want to "Create a

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>UWaterloo allum, huh... Ever encounter 'P1'? Read the adolescense of when it first came out. Saw the movie. Mr. Pone. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, sen

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

UWaterloo allum, huh... Ever encounter 'P1'? Those who have been around since the 70's get the reference... On Mon Jan 14 18:09 , Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent: >>I agree, in general, but I would insert one caveat: some form of assembler >>language should be included, as well as a var

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

Well, I could tell you I never had to debug an APL program... But I would also need to tell you I only wrote some Proof of Conpept programs and they did not count. ;) On Mon Jan 14 17:57 , Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent: >>From before I ever got into programming, I always thought APL w

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>I agree, in general, but I would insert one caveat: some form of assembler >language should be included, as well as a variety of higher-level languages. That's the way it was at UWaterloo. But, I didn't learn IBM Assembler until 3rd year. It was Honeywell in first year. If I were to set up a c

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:57 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the > Software

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

Rick Fochtman wrote: TMTOWTDI. --- ? http://www.greythumb.org/blog/index.php?/archives/7-T.M.T.O.W.T.D.I..html -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECT

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

My position is that the CS department should be teaching multiple languages in the first semester, carefully chosen to offer variety in the semantics and syntax. The intent should be to teach the Perl mantra --- I agre

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>From before I ever got into programming, I always thought APL was real >programming language! It even looked like one. The only problem I had with APL was that it was easier to re-write than debug. Glad I learned modular programming (all the fad in the mid-1970's). - Too busy driving to stop

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

(Seymour J.) >> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:53 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the >> Software Engineers of Tomorrow? >> >> >> In >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on >> 01/11/2008 >>

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:22 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the > Software Engineers of Tom

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>A good APL programmer thinks in terms of manipulating entire arrays. I always had fun with it in University, but I only worked with it at one company (1981). I still have Iverson's book. A friend of mine used to work for I.P. Sharp on the development team for their version of APL. The service

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:53 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the > Software

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 01/11/2008 at 06:41 PM, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >I have always believed that there are three mind-sets. Then you need to learn more languages. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 01/11/2008 at 01:22 PM, Jon Brock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >Anyway, I'm not so sure I hold to the "it's just another language" >mindset as much as I used to. It seems to me that there are important >differences between the way you conceive of and design a program in

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:05:59 +, Ted MacNEIL wrote: >>And one of the biggest "problems" with OOP is the use of object libraries. >>For __beginning__ students, using OOP usually means just "wiring together" a >>number of pre-existing objects, or maybe just >extending an existing object. WITHOU

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> The original article said "software engineer", not "programmer". > It wasn't explicitly stated, but I think that implies some element of > design, not just implementing. While that might include picking the > best existing solution it also includes creating a new solution if the > "best" is not

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:45:59 -0700, Howard Brazee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >... >It depends on what the craft of the programming is supposed to be. The >reason for making efficient code is to save the company money. If the >programmer turned some of his attention towards understanding the >use

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 11 Jan 2008 11:46:08 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote: >>Does it matter where the fault is? > > >Yes, I believe it does. >If memory leaks are a problem, they have to be resolved, just like any coding >issue. > >If it's the programmer - train or dismiss. >If it's the compiler - get

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 11 Jan 2008 11:35:40 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: >For an experienced programmer, this is a boon. But it totally defeats >the purpose for a beginner. They end up knowing very little and create >crappy code. In C, programmers just use the "qsort()" function to sort >stuff. And

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>Does it matter where the fault is? Yes, I believe it does. If memory leaks are a problem, they have to be resolved, just like any coding issue. If it's the programmer - train or dismiss. If it's the compiler - get it fixed. - Too busy driving to stop for gas!

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 13:22 -0500, Jon Brock wrote: > It seems to me that there are important > differences between the way you conceive of and design a program in > assembler/COBOL/C versus, say, Ruby or Java. +1 (as the kids say). IMO the finest undergraduate programming textbook is Abelson and

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:06 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the > Software Engineers of Tomor

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 11 Jan 2008 11:07:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote: >>Some OO languages produce lots of memory leaks in the real world - but there >>aren't nearly so many memory leaks in the procedural world. > >Is that the fault of the compiler or the programmer? >When I learned C++, I was tau

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee > > [ snip ] > > There isn't an awfully lot of conceptual difference between > programming a report on CoBOL or creating a video on iMovie. On the contrary, there is a fundamental difference: In "pr

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>Some OO languages produce lots of memory leaks in the real world - but there >aren't nearly so many memory leaks in the procedural world. Is that the fault of the compiler or the programmer? When I learned C++, I was taught about cleaning up after yourself, just like I was with COBOL or assembl

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 11 Jan 2008 10:57:04 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: >And one of the biggest "problems" with OOP is the use of object >libraries. For __beginning__ students, using OOP usually means just >"wiring together" a number of pre-existing objects, or maybe just >extending an existing obj

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>And one of the biggest "problems" with OOP is the use of object libraries. For >__beginning__ students, using OOP usually means just "wiring together" a >number of pre-existing objects, or maybe just extending an existing object. WITHOUT REALLY KNOWING HOW THE OBJECT WORKS! Unfortunately, using

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On 11 Jan 2008 10:41:55 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL) wrote: >I have always believed that there are three mind-sets. >1. Assembler/machine language. >2. Procedural languages (COBOL, etc.). >3. Object oriented. > >As you go from 1 to 3, you have less details to worry about, as the compiler

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:41 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the > Software Engineers of

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>It seems to me that there are important differences between the way you >conceive of and design a program in assembler/COBOL/C versus, say, Ruby or >Java. I have always believed that there are three mind-sets. 1. Assembler/machine language. 2. Procedural languages (COBOL, etc.). 3. Object orie

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

The authors were discussing the use of Java as the students' *first* programming language. Anyway, I'm not so sure I hold to the "it's just another language" mindset as much as I used to. It seems to me that there are important differences between the way you conceive of and design a program in

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

uble. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? Gibney, Dave wrote:

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

Gibney, Dave wrote: Why should what language is taught matter, after the second or third language, IF you are a programmer, it's just another language. Mostly syntax, some semantics. Agreed. But, the closer to "the metal" a language takes you, the more about "the metal" you learn. The

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:08:51 EST, Ed Finnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >... >> good test for CS students. I picture a blank stare on the student's >> faces, but I would love to be shown wrong. >... > >>> >Usually what we'd do is get Knuth's book and translate from MIX to whatever >was requir

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

In a message dated 1/11/2008 10:57:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > good test for CS students. I picture a blank stare on the student's > faces, but I would love to be shown wrong. >> Usually what we'd do is get Knuth's book and translate from MIX to whatever wa

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

O'Keefe > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers > of Tomorrow? > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:13:53 -0500, Jon Brock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > >..

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

ere is independent thread in a.f.c regarding the same article, some of the posts: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#44 Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008.html#46 Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers o

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:13:53 -0500, Jon Brock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >... >http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/08/0348239.shtml > >http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.ht ml >... Since the other thread on this topic went off in a seriously OT directio

Re: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>From the first link below: "jfmiller call to our attention two professors emeritus of computer science at New York University who have penned an article titled Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? in which they berate their university, and others,

Re: OT: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:36:26 -0600, Paul Gilmartin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >... >The conspicuous naivete exhibited in most of the postings to a recent >ASSEMBLER-LIST thread concerning coding the exponential function sugests >that assembler programmers are hardly better than Java programmers

Re: OT: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

>Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? > >It is our view that Computer Science (CS) education is neglecting basic >skills, in particular in the areas of programming and formal methods. We >consider that the general adoption of Java as a first

OT: Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow?

Here is a posting and accompanying article on Slashdot which you may enjoy. http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/08/0348239.shtml http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.html Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? It is our