Mohsen
Next time, don't mince your words. Be bold and say what you mean. Take a
stand and voice an opinion, why don't you
sheesh!
At 07:16 PM 11/3/2005 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As of
Wed Nov 2 22:47:14 PST 2005
the "Restaurant Guide" in
http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-64.html
Hello,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> As of
> Wed Nov 2 22:47:14 PST 2005
> the "Restaurant Guide" in
> http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-64.html
> points to
> http://www.ietf.org/meetings/Restaurant_Guide_Map.ppt
>
> This information is provided in Microsoft
> PowerPoint, a vendor-specific propriet
> PDF is *very* vendor-specific and proprietary. Who sets the>
standards for PDF? I remember there used to be discussions> here if the
RFC's should be published in PDF also. It's> always rejected of course,
even if PDF is probably the best> standard you can get for a formated
document (bette
Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
>> PDF is *very* vendor-specific and proprietary. Who sets the
>> standards for PDF? I remember there used to be discussions
>> here if the RFC's should be published in PDF also. It's
>> always rejected of course, even if PDF is probably the best
>> standard you can g
On Sat, 5 Nov 2005, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
> HTML is a Web format, not an e-mail format. And unlike PDF, HTML does
> not guarantee any particular presentation at the receiving end, since
> the receiving software must interpret the HTML. HTML gives
> suggestions, not absolute rules as PDF do
On 5 nov 2005, at 02.59, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
The advantage of PDF is that it preserves the exact appearance of the
original document, and that it is designed to be a final format, that
is, it is not designed to be editable (and editing PDF is difficult,
deliberately so). Also, PDF read
Avri Doria writes:
> I used to be a proponent of PDF usage in the IETF, but I have been
> informed that there are no PDF readers for the blind. This makes it
> less then optimal as a universal vehicle.
The simple solution is to have a text-only version of everything, even
if there is a PDF versi
> On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:59:10 +0100, Brian E Carpenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> said:
Brian> Here's the text. You can pick up a map at the
Brian> concierge desk in the Westin. I ate at Wild
Brian> Garlic last night and it was excellent.
Mr. Carpenter, the IETF Chair;
Your restaura
Chill out.
The restaurant guide is hardly an official document for the IETF. I am
sure it ended up there because someone was trying to be helpful. Call
that an accident or a poor judgement call if you are a purist, call it
simply insignificant if you're not. The document is more than likely
avai
Mohsen BANAN wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:59:10 +0100, Brian E Carpenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
Brian> Here's the text. You can pick up a map at the
Brian> concierge desk in the Westin. I ate at Wild
Brian> Garlic last night and it was excellent.
Mr. Carpenter, the IETF Chair;
Mohsen BANAN wrote:
...
- Immediately addressed the problem and republished
in an Open/Libre/Free format.
Do you seriously imagine that this is a high priority
during the final preparations for a meeting?
As a matter of fact I agree with you that it's desirable
to avoid proprietary forma
Mohsen BANAN wrote:
> Of course many now visit the ietf.org site primarily
> for the restaurant guide.
http://www.google.com/custom?q=cache:73jsCm44tooJ:www.ietf.org/meetings/Restaurant_Guide_Map.ppt+restaurant&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> Is big business now so entrenched at the ietf that use
> of Microsof
Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
> The advantage of PDF is that it preserves the exact
> appearance of the original document,
For thoe who want this that's nice as far as it works,
but I'm generally more interested in the _content_ and
not style or layout. And I don't want to print it, I
want to rea
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 01:35:55 +0100, Brian E Carpenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> said:
Brian> As a matter of fact I agree with you that it's desirable
Brian> to avoid proprietary formats, and I have passed this on
Brian> to the IAD for future reference.
Thank you.
Glad you agree.
B
On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Frank Ellermann wrote:
> | For incorporation into the proceedings, presentation slides
> | submitted in ppt and doc WILL BE converted to html and pdf,
> | respectively.
>
> I can only hope that they pick HTML for all slides that might
> interest me later.
>
> > Publication of a
Frank Ellermann writes:
> For thoe who want this that's nice as far as it works, but I'm
> generally more interested in the _content_ and not style or layout.
Sometimes layout is important, if text and graphic elements are mixed.
> And I don't want to print it, I want to read it. In a GUI or tex
shogunx writes:
> Proprietary formats have no place in the IETF. The internet belongs to
> everyone, not Microsoft.
Proprietary formats don't come exclusively from Microsoft, and a lot
of public formats start as proprietary formats. Even many public
formats are actually proprietary, even if the
On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
> shogunx writes:
>
> > Proprietary formats have no place in the IETF. The internet belongs to
> > everyone, not Microsoft.
>
> Proprietary formats don't come exclusively from Microsoft,
No, but they come with more abundence from them. I remember
Hi, Mohsen,
It's been awhile,
Of course many now visit the ietf.org site primarily
for the restaurant guide. ...
True to form, like an experienced cult leader, you have
again trivialized a real problem.
Fortunately, you are not a real problem.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWor
> "Avri" == Avri Doria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Avri> I used to be a proponent of PDF usage in the IETF, but I
Avri> have been informed that there are no PDF readers for the
Avri> blind. This makes it less then optimal as a universal
Avri> vehicle.
I believe this is false.
At 03:18 06/11/2005, shogunx wrote:
Proprietary formats have no place in the IETF. The internet belongs
to everyone, not Microsoft.
Dear Scott,
I am sorry: ask Frank. RFC 3066 bis imposes the Unicode (IBM/MS/...)
CLDR format. And excludes the IETF RFC 4151 format. You can use open
HTML but w
On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, JFC (Jefsey) Morfin wrote:
> At 03:18 06/11/2005, shogunx wrote:
> >Proprietary formats have no place in the IETF. The internet belongs
> >to everyone, not Microsoft.
>
> Dear Scott,
> I am sorry: ask Frank. RFC 3066 bis imposes the Unicode (IBM/MS/...)
> CLDR format. And excl
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > HTML may look nothing like the author intended.
>
> Now if the author is more interested in his layout than
> readability and accesibility, let alone transport costs, then
> he's obviously stupid.
More likely the author is simply tho
Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
> The problems with HTML are almost entirely the result of people trying
> to give the author control over the final format which is none of the
> author's beeswax.
It has been the author's prerogative for thousands of years; I'm not
sure why that must change now. T
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Anthony G. Atkielski
> Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
>
> > The problems with HTML are almost entirely the result of
> people trying
> > to give the author control over the final format which is
> none of the
> > author's b
Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
>> he's obviously stupid.
> More likely the author is simply thoughtless.
An extreme case of "thoghtless", because the size difference
from plain to PDF is huge, I'd guess about a factor 50, from
plain to HTML it's only a factor 2.
> plain text email markup works a l
> Behalf Of Frank Ellermann
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 2:14 PM
> To: ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Faux Pas -- web publication in proprietary
> formats at ietf.org
>
> Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> > IETF documents are dreadful to print out
>
> type rf
Hello,
Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
The simple solution is to have a text-only version of everything, even
if there is a PDF version. Text is more universal than any other
type of file, but since it has so few formatting options, it can be
hard to read (which is why a PDF version is also useful)
Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
> It has been the publisher's perogative, not the authors.
They have usually worked together.
Today, the author may do all the work, in which case he has complete
control.
> The past ten years represent the anomaly in this regard,
> not the norm.
More correctly, t
Frank Ellermann writes:
> But some PDFs generated with open office still work with my
> old Acroreader 3, no "colorspace 6 not found" or other issues
> like "cannot extract embedded font". And why should I want
> any embedded fonts, my OS/2 has a nice Adobe Courier, a nice
> Adobe Hevetica, even
Thomas Kuiper writes:
> Here is a real beauty on page 22 of RFC 793:
An ideally suited to PDF. It would be much easier to generate that
way, much easier to read, and much easier to print legibly. There's
nothing wrong with having the text version as a backup, but when you
get into graphics it's
Title: Faux Pas -- web publication in proprietary formats at ietf.org
Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> My printers at CERN were usually loaded with A4 paper,
> US 'letter' is not readily available there.
A4 should be fine for a formfeed plus 55 lines. Otherwise
try DEV PUN with serial card number
Disclaimer - the following lines were added to my mail by a
third party claiming to be 'mailman 2.1.5' without my consent:
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===0019795915=="
--===0019795915==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--===0019795915==
Content-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Anthony G. Atkielski
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 10:02 PM
> To: ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Faux Pas -- web publication in proprietary
> formats at ietf.org
>
> Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes
Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
> A bad one, empower the reader.
Why are readers more important than authors?
> The point of communication is to get your point across to the READER.
For that, you need control over how the information is presented.
> If you want to dictate the presentation to the
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 06:45:27PM +0100,
Anthony G. Atkielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
a message of 24 lines which said:
> It has been the author's prerogative for thousands of years;
Certainly not, unless the author is also the typographer, which is
uncommon.
> The author is the creator of
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 09:24:51AM -0800,
Hallam-Baker, Phillip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
a message of 36 lines which said:
> If you try to print out RFCs in Europe
I print RFC all the time (I'm an old dino, used to paper), I live in
France which seems to be in Europe and It Works For Me.
_
At 10:24 08/11/2005, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 06:45:27PM +0100,
Anthony G. Atkielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
a message of 24 lines which said:
> It has been the author's prerogative for thousands of years;
Certainly not, unless the author is also the typographer, w
On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 10:41:13AM +0100,
JFC (Jefsey) Morfin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
a message of 21 lines which said:
> Typography is a part of the presentation.
Nobody would object here :-)
> Even in the French early XXth century poestry this was the case
> (cf. Apollinaire).
Not everyo
Actually quite a lot of people disagree. And this would HARDLY be considered
a MS friendly venue, though clearly as someone mentioned you've got a gripe
with Microsoft and not proprietary standards otherwise you wouldn't have
mentioned PDF.
>
> > On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:59:10 +0100, Brian E Ca
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Anthony G. Atkielski
>
> Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
>
> > A bad one, empower the reader.
>
> Why are readers more important than authors?
Because they are your customers.
> > The point of c
Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
> Because they are your customers.
The reader/author relationship is only very rarely comparable to
the customer/vendor relationship. For many authors, money is not that
important.
> No, the author can not possibly know the needs of the reader.
The reader can pick
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Anthony G. Atkielski
> Hallam-Baker, Phillip writes:
>
> > Because they are your customers.
>
> The reader/author relationship is only very rarely comparable
> to the customer/vendor relationship. For many authors, money
> i
shogunx wrote:
On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
shogunx writes:
Proprietary formats have no place in the IETF. The internet belongs
to everyone, not Microsoft.
Proprietary formats don't come exclusively from Microsoft,
No, but they come with more abundence from them. I
Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
If everyone were
Voltaire, we would not need smileys to express irony.
That is awesome. That is going straight into my fortune-cookie file.
--
Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California, USA
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
_
Here's the text. You can pick up a map at the concierge desk
in the Westin. I ate at Wild Garlic last night and it was
excellent.
Brian
West Coast Cuisine
Cardero's (1) – 1583 Coal Harbour Quay – 604-669-7666
Wild Garlic Restaurant (2) – 792 Denman – 604-667-1663
Tapastree(3) – 1829 Robson
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