t; >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Templin (US), Fred L fred.l.temp...@boeing.com>>
> > >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:46 PM
> > >> To: Ron Bonica mailto:rbon...@juniper.net>>;
> Fred Baker
> > >> mailto:fr
Ron
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Templin (US), Fred L <mailto:fred.l.temp...@boeing.com>>
> >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:46 PM
> >> To: Ron Bonica mailto:rbon...@juniper.net>
fragments
Ron
> -Original Message-
> From: Templin (US), Fred L
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:46 PM
> To: Ron Bonica ; Fred Baker
>
> Cc: int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
> Hi
t;> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:46 PM
> >> To: Ron Bonica ; Fred Baker
> >>
> >> Cc: int-area@ietf.org
> >> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
> >>
> >> Hi Ron,
> >>
> >> Ther
Ron
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Templin (US), Fred L
>> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:46 PM
>> To: Ron Bonica ; Fred Baker
>>
>> Cc: int-area@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
. Comments inline.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 13:55:16 -0700
>>>> From: Tom Herbert
>>>> To: int-area
>>>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Acti
18 1:39 PM
> To: Fred Baker
> Cc: int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
> Hi Fred,
>
> The first iteration of Section 7.3 actually included the word "reassemble".
> That is one possible implementation.
>
On 2018-10-15 12:58, Ron Bonica wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> Inline..
>
> FROM: Joe Touch
> SENT: Monday, October 15, 2018 12:47 PM
> TO: Tom Herbert
> CC: Ron Bonica ; int-area
> SUBJECT: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
o the code:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/ion-dtn/
Thanks - Fred
> -Original Message-
> From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbon...@juniper.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 1:48 PM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-in
gt; Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 13:55:16 -0700
>> >> From: Tom Herbert
>> >> To: int-area
>> >> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action:
>> >> draft-ietf-i
Ron Bonica ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Another application besides iperf3 is the Licklider Transmission Protocol
> (LTP)
> convergence layer of the Interplanetary Overlay Network (ION)
> im
er
> > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 3:50 PM
> > To: Ron Bonica
> > Cc: int-area@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 15, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Ron Bonica wrote:
> &
aintenance of a little more state.
Ron
> -Original Message-
> From: Fred Baker
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 3:50 PM
> To: Ron Bonica
> Cc: int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-
operators drop fragmented
packets. This work was never complete.
Ron
> -Original Message-
> From: Tom Herbert
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 3:31 PM
> To: Ron Bonica
> Cc: int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-f
for this class of applications.
Thanks - Fred
> -Original Message-
> From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbon...@juniper.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 12:53 PM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-0
Can you provide a reference that I can use in the document?
> -Original Message-
> From: Templin (US), Fred L
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 2:41 PM
> To: Tom Herbert ; Joe Touch
>
> Cc: Ron Bonica ; int-area
> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-in
Hi Joe,
Inline……
From: Joe Touch
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 12:47 PM
To: Tom Herbert
Cc: Ron Bonica ; int-area
Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
Two points I'd like to make:
1) it is very important to list at least one other application
se fragmentation over the Internet. This
> probably should be mentioned in the draft.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:22:47 +
>> From: &q
a ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron
> > Bonica
> > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 8
craft a new section. What do you think?
Ron
From: Tom Herbert
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 11:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica
Cc: int-area
Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
On Mon
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-10-15 12:13, Tom Herbert wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 12:06 PM, Templin (US), Fred L
> wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> ...
> From what I saw when I was working with iperf3. By default, it uses 8KB
> UDP datagram sizes when it runs
> On Oct 15, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Ron Bonica wrote:
>
> So, the spirit of the robustness principle, all parties should be
> conservative in what they do and liberal in what they accept.
>
> - Application developers should avoid reliance on IP Fragmentation. (Don't
> trip on the bad behavior
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Ron Bonica wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> Hope you are feeling better. Comments inline.
>
> Ron
>
>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 13:55:16 -0700
>> From: Tom Herbert
>> To: int-area
>>
On 2018-10-15 12:13, Tom Herbert wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 12:06 PM, Templin (US), Fred L
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> ...
>> From what I saw when I was working with iperf3. By default, it uses 8KB
>> UDP datagram sizes when it runs on Ubuntu. By setting the UDP datagram
>> size to a
Sorry - getting back to the last example.
On 2018-10-15 11:28, Tom Herbert wrote:
> ...
>
>> Agreed. But your math is incorrect unless drops are uncorrelated; correlated
>> losses could result in nearly the same impact on fragmented packets as non
>> fragmented packets.
> ...
> Besides that,
;
>> int-area
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Templin (US), Fred L
>> wrote:
>> >> It would be interesting to see the reall world case where
>> >> fragmen
On 2018-10-15 11:28, Tom Herbert wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
>> On 2018-10-15 09:59, Tom Herbert wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>>
>> Two points I'd like to make:
>>
>> 1) it is very important to list at least one other
Hi Tom,
Hope you are feeling better. Comments inline.
Ron
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 13:55:16 -0700
> From: Tom Herbert
> To: int-area
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
> Message-ID:
Hi Fred,
> -Original Message-
> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.i...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 12:06 PM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L
> Cc: Ron Bonica ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
Hi Tom,
> -Original Message-
> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:t...@herbertland.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 11:52 AM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L
> Cc: Joe Touch ; Ronald Bonica ;
> int-area
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01
> On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Templin (US), Fred L
> wrote:
>
> The term I used was "performance optimization".
Then we agree that it is an optimization, and not a requirement.
signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
Int-area
> On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:41 AM, Templin (US), Fred L
> wrote:
>
>> It would be interesting to see the reall world case where
>> fragmentation can do better or as good (either in goodput or
>> performance), but I'm doubtful that exists.
>
> One of the applications I am referring to works over
HI Fred,
> -Original Message-
> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.i...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 11:42 AM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L
> Cc: Ron Bonica ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
&g
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Templin (US), Fred L
wrote:
>> It would be interesting to see the reall world case where
>> fragmentation can do better or as good (either in goodput or
>> performance), but I'm doubtful that exists.
>
> One of the applications I am referring to works over space
On Oct 15, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Templin (US), Fred L
wrote:
>> Yes, there may be other applications that require fragmentation. IPERF may
>> be one of them. But we don't need to mention it because
>> we have already made our case against deprecation. Mentioning every
>> application that
> It would be interesting to see the reall world case where
> fragmentation can do better or as good (either in goodput or
> performance), but I'm doubtful that exists.
One of the applications I am referring to works over space links where there
are long delays, but no congestion and hence
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-10-15 09:59, Tom Herbert wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
> Two points I'd like to make:
>
> 1) it is very important to list at least one other application besides
> tunneling that relies on
On 2018-10-15 09:59, Tom Herbert wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
>> Two points I'd like to make:
>>
>> 1) it is very important to list at least one other application besides
>> tunneling that relies on fragmentation. Frankly, unless the list is
>> prohibitively
gt;
> I believe this amplified drop rate is a problem inherent of fragmentation
> and good reason why not to use fragmentation over the Internet. This
> probably should be mentioned in the draft..
>
> Tom
>
>>
>>
>>
On 2018-10-15 08:55, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:
> ...
> So, I think that the document should at least acknowledge this fact but
> at the same time cite [RFC4963] as evidence that the practice is dangerous.
The points raised in RFC6864 Sec 5.2 might have mitigated the situation
described in
over the Internet. This probably
> should be mentioned in the draft..
>
> Tom
>
>> Ron
>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:22:47 +
>>> From: "Templin (US), Fred L"
>>> To: "int-area@ietf.org&qu
Hi Ron,
> -Original Message-
> From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 8:14 AM
> To: int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
>
> Hi Fred,
>
om: "Templin (US), Fred L"
> > To: "int-area@ietf.org"
> > Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action:
> > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-01.txt
> > Message-ID:
> > <554d668a29934ecf9fdf95d77d1cca52@XCH15-06-
> > 08.nw.nos.bo
fragmentation is over-kill.
Ron
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:22:47 +
> From: "Templin (US), Fred L"
> To: "int-area@ietf.org"
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action:
> draft-ietf
Thanks for the updated draft. Here are a few comments:
"While this document identifies issues associated with IP
fragmentation, it does not recommend deprecation. Some applications
(e.g., [I-D.ietf-intarea-tunnels]) require IP fragmentation."
I would add that use of fragmentation is also
I made this comment earlier, but it does not appear to have made it into this
version.
Some applications invoke IP fragmentation as a performance optimization, and
that
should be mentioned here. But, it also needs to say that RFC4963 warns against
reassembly errors at high data rates.
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group WG of the IETF.
Title : IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile
Authors : Ron Bonica
Fred Baker
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