Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Will Fitch wrote: On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Lester Caine mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk>> wrote: Will Fitch wrote: Hi, Lester - I'll update the patch and RFC to include this format. This is the format I'll use unless others have a better approach: 2012-09

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Lester Caine wrote: > Will Fitch wrote: > >> Hi, Lester - I'll update the patch and RFC to include this format. This >> is the >> format I'll use unless others have a better approach: >> >> 2012-09-01T00:00:00-0500 (America/Chicago) >> > > Just working through ano

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Will Fitch wrote: Hi, Lester - I'll update the patch and RFC to include this format. This is the format I'll use unless others have a better approach: 2012-09-01T00:00:00-0500 (America/Chicago) Just working through another backlog of 'todo' items. Your current RFC includes -0500 in the examp

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

hi! On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 6:28 PM, jpauli wrote: > Just In Case, I implemented a solution in an extension of mine. > I use a INI setting, ideas are on my github > https://github.com/jpauli/Comuto/blob/master/comuto.c#L97 and > https://github.com/jpauli/Comuto/blob/master/comuto.c#L175 > > Anyway

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Just In Case, I implemented a solution in an extension of mine. I use a INI setting, ideas are on my github https://github.com/jpauli/Comuto/blob/master/comuto.c#L97 and https://github.com/jpauli/Comuto/blob/master/comuto.c#L175 Anyway, I'm really +1 for patching ext/date to add such a feature :)

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > as i said above, a global option will make this feature completly unusable > for libraries. For Doctrine we would really like to have __toString() for > datetime primary keys (identity map), but we need a reliable stable > lossless format that can nev

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Will Fitch wrote: Hi, Lester - I'll update the patch and RFC to include this format. This is the format I'll use unless others have a better approach: 2012-09-01T00:00:00-0500 (America/Chicago) Either offset OR timezone ... not both ... BUT as Derick has pointed out ... without the offset,

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Hi Will, Am 03.09.2012 um 15:04 schrieb Will Fitch : [...] > > > Hi, Lester - I'll update the patch and RFC to include this format. This is > the format I'll use unless others have a better approach: > > 2012-09-01T00:00:00-0500 (America/Chicago) Psst ... microseconds ... pssst. Please includ

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

as i said above, a global option will make this feature completly unusable for libraries. For Doctrine we would really like to have __toString() for datetime primary keys (identity map), but we need a reliable stable lossless format that can never change. On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Will Fitc

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 3 September 2012 19:54, Will Fitch wrote: > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Adam Harvey wrote: >> I just don't see how we can choose a sensible default format for >> users. Sometimes you want ISO 8601. Sometimes you want whatever your >> locale's customary date format is. Sometimes you want US

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Lars Strojny wrote: > > > Additionally to what Ryan proposed, microseconds should be part of it > > (which ISO allows). So, here we go: > > > > 2012-09-02T18:17:36.12345+0100 (Europe/London) > > Hi Lars - there wouldn't b

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

hi Lars, On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Lars Strojny wrote: > Ease debugging by allowing "echo $date;" instead of "echo > $date->format(...);" Ooch. If that's the only goal, it makes no sense to add that. However I see many useful usages like passing date object to templates and the likes

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Lester Caine wrote: > Derick Rethans wrote: > >> You have an accurate representation of the ISO format - which does not >>> >specify the string representation of a timezone, but rather the offset >>> of >>> >UTC. This is not lossy. >>> >> Yes it is! You can't go b

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Lars Strojny wrote: > Hi Pierre, hi Will, > > Am 03.09.2012 um 13:57 schrieb Pierre Joye : > > > hi Will, > > > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Will Fitch wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:59 AM, Ryan McCue wrote: > >> > >>> As far as I can tell, there's no

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Derick Rethans wrote: You have an accurate representation of the ISO format - which does not >specify the string representation of a timezone, but rather the offset of >UTC. This is not lossy. Yes it is! You can't go back from an UTC offset to a timezone string. Hence: lossy. Exactly ... Wil

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Hi Will, Am 03.09.2012 um 14:01 schrieb Will Fitch : > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: [...] > I actually feel a static function which tracks globally would best serve > this case: > > date_default_format_set('c') > > This would prevent the need for setting it on a per insta

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Hi Pierre, hi Will, Am 03.09.2012 um 13:57 schrieb Pierre Joye : > hi Will, > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Will Fitch wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:59 AM, Ryan McCue wrote: >> >>> As far as I can tell, there's no standard which uses the Olson database >>> to specify the timezone, so

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > hi Will, > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Will Fitch wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:59 AM, Ryan McCue wrote: > > > >> As far as I can tell, there's no standard which uses the Olson database > >> to specify the timezone, so we'd have t

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

hi Will, On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Will Fitch wrote: > On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:59 AM, Ryan McCue wrote: > >> As far as I can tell, there's no standard which uses the Olson database >> to specify the timezone, so we'd have to create one. >> >> What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suf

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Adam Harvey wrote: > On 3 September 2012 17:36, Andrew Faulds wrote: > > Ryan McCue wrote: > >>What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suffixed? > >> > >>2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 (Europe/London) > >>2012-09-02T18:19:05+0100 (Africa/Niamey) > >> > > > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > You have an accurate representation of the ISO format - which does not > specify the string representation of a timezone, but rather the offset of > UTC. This is not lossy. Yes it is! You can't go back from an UTC offset to a timezone string. Hence: lossy

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:59 AM, Ryan McCue wrote: > As far as I can tell, there's no standard which uses the Olson database > to specify the timezone, so we'd have to create one. > > What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suffixed? > > 2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 (Europe/London) > 2012-0

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > > > On Sep 2, 2012 6:08 PM, "Lester Caine" wrote: > > > > > > Peter Cowburn wrote: > > >> > > >> Finally, why should "echo $datetime;" be expected to work at all, > > >> since 95% of the time it's onl

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Adam Harvey wrote: > On 3 September 2012 17:36, Andrew Faulds wrote: > > Ryan McCue wrote: > >>What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suffixed? > >> > >>2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 (Europe/London) > >>2012-09-02T18:19:05+0100 (Africa/Niamey) > >> > > > > Sounds good.

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Best solution from a random developers perspective: - stick the 4-line solution in the docs and on to the bug report. Then mark as won't implement It's a far better solution than choosing a random format for users, as should be more than evident by now. Regards Peter -- WWW: plphp.dk / plind.d

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 3 September 2012 17:36, Andrew Faulds wrote: > Ryan McCue wrote: >>What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suffixed? >> >>2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 (Europe/London) >>2012-09-02T18:19:05+0100 (Africa/Niamey) >> > > Sounds good. If we're going to invent arbitrary non-standard formats,

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Ryan McCue wrote: >As far as I can tell, there's no standard which uses the Olson database >to specify the timezone, so we'd have to create one. > >What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suffixed? > >2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 (Europe/London) >2012-09-02T18:19:05+0100 (Africa/Niamey)

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

As far as I can tell, there's no standard which uses the Olson database to specify the timezone, so we'd have to create one. What about ISO8601 with the Olson timezone suffixed? 2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 (Europe/London) 2012-09-02T18:19:05+0100 (Africa/Niamey) -- Ryan McCue

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > On Sep 2, 2012 6:08 PM, "Lester Caine" wrote: > > > > Peter Cowburn wrote: > >> > >> Finally, why should "echo $datetime;" be expected to work at all, > >> since 95% of the time it's only going to be echo'd plain like that for > >> debugging purposes as we'

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Sherif Ramadan wrote: >> >> It is problematic because that is what we choose to make it. Right now, a >> catchable fatal error is produced. That is problematic. ISO8601 is not >> lossy nor is UTC. It can be taken by any other language and converted based >> on the

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sep 2, 2012 6:08 PM, "Lester Caine" wrote: > > Peter Cowburn wrote: >> >> Finally, why should "echo $datetime;" be expected to work at all, >> since 95% of the time it's only going to be echo'd plain like that for >> debugging purposes as we'll never pick the "right" format to use in >> everyon

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Peter Cowburn wrote: Finally, why should "echo $datetime;" be expected to work at all, since 95% of the time it's only going to be echo'd plain like that for debugging purposes as we'll never pick the "right" format to use in everyone's code. When needing to set the "default" (read: per-instance)

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 2 September 2012 22:20, Derick Rethans wrote: > > Yeah, I understand you don't see a reason. That's what scares me. For > debugging I definetely wouldn't want to have my datetimes mangled to > just show UTC. I wouldn't even be able to see the difference between 4pm > London and 5pm Amsterdam ti

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Andrew Faulds wrote: Yes, I am saying that ISO8601 is lossy - and that is something that shouldn't be the default format. Lossy of what? Local timezone? ISO 8601 is the single unambiguously ordered (no mm-dd/dd-mm confusion), international standard, machine-readable (default in ECMAScript, for

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Andrew Faulds wrote: > On 02/09/12 21:50, Derick Rethans wrote: > > Yes, I am saying that ISO8601 is lossy - and that is something that > > shouldn't be the default format. > > > Lossy of what? Local timezone? > > ISO 8601 is the single unambiguously ordered (no mm-dd/dd-mm

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 02/09/12 21:50, Derick Rethans wrote: Yes, I am saying that ISO8601 is lossy - and that is something that shouldn't be the default format. Lossy of what? Local timezone? ISO 8601 is the single unambiguously ordered (no mm-dd/dd-mm confusion), international standard, machine-readable (defau

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > On Sep 2, 2012 4:39 PM, "Andrew Faulds" wrote: > > > > On 02/09/12 18:20, Derick Rethans wrote: > >> > >> > >> No it's not unambigious: > >> ..snip... > >> > > I'm a little confused as to what is going on here, but ISO8601 has a UTC > format, -MM-DDTHH:

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Andrew Faulds wrote: > On 02/09/12 21:45, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > Yes, and that format is ambigious like I just illustrated. cheers, > > Derick > > No, you just demonstrated the time offset format is ambiguous, not the > UTC format. Yes, I am saying that ISO8601 is loss

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Lester Caine wrote: > Derick Rethans wrote: > > > Then ISO8601, please. It's a single, unambiguous Date and Time format. > > No it's not unambigious: > > Derick - is this effect just due to daylight saving differences, or IS it a > bit more complex than that? This one illustr

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sep 2, 2012 4:39 PM, "Andrew Faulds" wrote: > > On 02/09/12 18:20, Derick Rethans wrote: >> >> >> No it's not unambigious: >> >> $ php -r 'date_default_timezone_set("Europe/London"); echo date_create()->format(DateTime::ISO8601), "\n";' >> 2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 >> >> $ php -r 'date_default_t

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 02/09/12 21:45, Derick Rethans wrote: Yes, and that format is ambigious like I just illustrated. cheers, Derick No, you just demonstrated the time offset format is ambiguous, not the UTC format. -- Andrew Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To u

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Andrew Faulds wrote: > On 02/09/12 18:20, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > No it's not unambigious: > > > > $ php -r 'date_default_timezone_set("Europe/London"); echo > > date_create()->format(DateTime::ISO8601), "\n";' > > 2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 > > > > $ php -r 'date_defaul

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 02/09/12 18:20, Derick Rethans wrote: No it's not unambigious: $ php -r 'date_default_timezone_set("Europe/London"); echo date_create()->format(DateTime::ISO8601), "\n";' 2012-09-02T18:17:36+0100 $ php -r 'date_default_timezone_set("Africa/Niamey"); echo date_create()->format(DateTime::IS

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Lester Caine wrote: > Personally I don't want any timezone/offset displayed as I expect it to be a > UTC time by default on the server, rather than any offset time, which is why > I'm with you that it should only be changed via user space applications. > > > -- > L

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Derick Rethans wrote: Then ISO8601, please. It's a single, unambiguous Date and Time format. No it's not unambigious: Derick - is this effect just due to daylight saving differences, or IS it a bit more complex than that? Personally I don't want any timezone/offset displayed as I expect it

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Andrew Faulds wrote: > On 02/09/12 14:40, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > > I think allowing to change teh default format would be horrible. If > > libraries (such as Doctrine would) use this internally, they are at the will > > of users not to fiddle with this setting. Not to speak

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Andrew Faulds wrote: I think allowing to change teh default format would be horrible. If libraries (such as Doctrine would) use this internally, they are at the will of users not to fiddle with this setting. Not to speak about libraries that contradict each other. If there was a format, it would

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 02/09/12 14:40, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: I think allowing to change teh default format would be horrible. If libraries (such as Doctrine would) use this internally, they are at the will of users not to fiddle with this setting. Not to speak about libraries that contradict each other. If the

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

I think allowing to change teh default format would be horrible. If libraries (such as Doctrine would) use this internally, they are at the will of users not to fiddle with this setting. Not to speak about libraries that contradict each other. If there was a format, it would have to be constant im

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 02/09/12 13:55, Pierre Joye wrote: On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: We should absolutely NOT add ini settings for this. They make things unportable. Agreed. Add my name to the list. PHP's ini settings are one of its bad points, IMO. We don't need any more of them. -

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: > We should absolutely NOT add ini settings for this. They make things > unportable. Agreed. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubs

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > > > > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to > > > implement __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested > > > feature that goes unanswered mostly because of the inabili

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > > > > > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > > > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Hi! > Hi, Stas. This has been on my mind as well. I've considered that maybe > an INI wide setting would be beneficial here. In fact, there are many > places within applications I've worked on where the format for many > DateTime objects are the same. What are your thoughts on that? I think y

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Will Fitch wrote: I'm not sure introducing special state to DateTime for it is the best >way to handle it. Also, most applications would have common date format >- which means since the state is per DateTime object, they'd have to >watch that every object produced would have this property set. I

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > > unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. > > This

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > > > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > > unanswered mostly because of the inability to a

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > hi Will, > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Will Fitch wrote: > > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > > unanswered mostly because

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

Hi! > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. This must indicate there's actually no default pattern that is "default

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Will Fitch wrote: > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. > > In short, the patch uses the ISO-

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Will Fitch wrote: > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. > > In short, the patch us

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

hi Will, On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Will Fitch wrote: > I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement > __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes > unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. > > In short, t

Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

On 01/09/12 11:14, Will Fitch wrote: I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. In short, the patch uses the ISO-8601 forma

[PHP-DEV] RFC for Adding __toString to DateTime

I would like to officially introduce an RFC with a patch to implement __toString to DateTime. This is a commonly requested feature that goes unanswered mostly because of the inability to agree on a default pattern. In short, the patch uses the ISO-8601 format as the default pattern. The pattern