[The Java Posse] Re: Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

Personally I work on the train with sporadic internet connection, I would need an off-line mode which surely is an IDE with svn/git... Until we have (in the UK anyway) better mobile internet for me I think I will be staying with my installed IDE. Phil On Mar 29, 1:37 am, phil swenson wrote: > g

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

Did he basically retire from enginneering around jdk 1.1 ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@go

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

Its the duplication of elements due to exception wrapping that appears in stack dumps. Fix that and your stacktraces become a lot more readable. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@go

Re: [The Java Posse] Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

good idea yes? practical? When someone writes an editor that approaches an IDE editor, maybe. On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Moandji Ezana wrote: > A lot are being announced, at the moment: > > Eclipse's Orion and OrionHub > eXo's Cloud IDE

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Moandji Ezana wrote: > On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:56 AM, Chris Adamson wrote: > >> There are worse ways to use a genius. >> > > Aren't there already enough geniuses working on Go? > Considering that Go doesn't support exceptions nor generics, I would say they don

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Chris Adamson wrote: > You know, rather than just enjoy his name value and geek cred, Google > getting Dr. Gosling to get Go moving could be an intriguingly > disruptive idea. I have never heard Gosling voice any opinion about Go but I can't imagine that he would

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:56 AM, Chris Adamson wrote: > There are worse ways to use a genius. > Aren't there already enough geniuses working on Go? Moandji -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email t

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

You know, rather than just enjoy his name value and geek cred, Google getting Dr. Gosling to get Go moving could be an intriguingly disruptive idea. Go seems like the only compiled language with any new thought and effort behind it (*), which could be valuable on the device. Maybe Go could become t

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

Process is all well and good, and I know I've personally reviewed every single commit made by others on the projects I've worked on, but sometimes we inherit a steaming pile and certain smelly bits are easier to fix than others. E.g., pre-1.5 style lack of generics - really easy to fix, unless som

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

I think this discussion has come to a solid point: it's more about the process than tech. BTW, we already have UnsupportedOperationException, which I often use in my own code as a way get something half-baked to compile and mark the place to come back to later. But the big lesson I think is th

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Playbook is a more dev friendly than Xoom

I'd bet more people than you realise.  It was the OS of choice for the majority of ATMs shipped from ~1990 to ~1995, then usage decreased steadily as winnt gradually took over.  So if you've ever taken cash from an ATM then you're most likely an unwitting

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Ricky Clarkson wrote: > The problem is that when you're coding 'the happy path' you might not want > to think about all the error cases, but to get the happy path compiling and > running you need to add the try..catches (yes, throws works too, but not in > all case

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

The problem is that when you're coding 'the happy path' you might not want to think about all the error cases, but to get the happy path compiling and running you need to add the try..catches (yes, throws works too, but not in all cases - Runnable, etc.) and you're doing that before you've consider

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

When did I say anything about ignoring? No one is advocating ignoring exceptions. You (usually) let them bubble up to the top thread and either log, present to user, notify to sys admin (email), or any combination of these. Checked exceptions are what leads to ignoring because developers tend to

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Kevin Wright wrote: > What's the difference? If I have to spend less time bug-fixing because my > software is more robust, then my life *is* easier. Exactly, which is the main reason why checked exceptions are valuable. -- Cédric -- You received this message

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

2011/3/28 Cédric Beust ♔ > > > 2011/3/28 phil swenson > >> Most of the time I can't do anything about an exception and checked >> exceptions force me to write boiler plate to deal with them - either giant >> throws clauses or wrap in another exception. So I argue the cost of having >> to deal w

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

> Praising? You haven't paid much attention to what I wrote, did you? Sorry, I might have jumped the gun, but it really read like an oxymoron to me. > Spring was a good idea when it came out but today, it turned into a behemoth > that is bigger, more complex and even less documented than J2EE. I

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

2011/3/28 phil swenson > Most of the time I can't do anything about an exception and checked > exceptions force me to write boiler plate to deal with them - either giant > throws clauses or wrap in another exception. So I argue the cost of having > to deal with them in every case (checked) is gr

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

sent from my Droid On Mar 27, 2011 11:53 PM, "Kevin Wright" wrote: > 2011/3/28 Cédric Beust ♔ > >> >> >> 2011/3/27 Kevin Wright >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Haskell doesn't have this issue, nor does Coq or Agda, all of them >>> being far more Nannyish than Java is ways that actually have some prov

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

Most of the time I can't do anything about an exception and checked exceptions force me to write boiler plate to deal with them - either giant throws clauses or wrap in another exception. So I argue the cost of having to deal with them in every case (checked) is greater than the cost of dealing wi

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Kevin Wright wrote: > > > This is the problem causing Java's excessive stack traces, just exemplified > by Spring more than most other libraries/frameworks: > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html > > I like Steve's articles but

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Casper Bang wrote: > > What is the advantage of discovering at runtime things that could be > caught > > by the compiler? > > Wow, really? You said that after praising Spring? > Praising? You haven't paid much attention to what I wrote, did you? Spring was a goo

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

2011/3/28 Cédric Beust ♔ > > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Casper Bang wrote: > >> > By the way, here is something that happens fairly frequently around me >> (it >> > just occurred to me that this was relevant to our current discussion). >> >> I kind of see where you are going, and yet, I

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

> What is the advantage of discovering at runtime things that could be caught > by the compiler? Wow, really? You said that after praising Spring? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

> First of all, I think that Spring solved some very clearly identified > problems with Jave EE, which is why it became so successful. It was > certainly not a solution in search of a problem. Spring is so many unidentified things thrown in, that us talking about "Spring" doesn't even make sense -

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Casper Bang wrote: > > By the way, here is something that happens fairly frequently around me > (it > > just occurred to me that this was relevant to our current discussion). > > I kind of see where you are going, and yet, I will claim that Spring > is yet anothe

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

> By the way, here is something that happens fairly frequently around me (it > just occurred to me that this was relevant to our current discussion). I kind of see where you are going, and yet, I will claim that Spring is yet another complex solution in search of a problem, so that doesn't really

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 12:04 PM, phil swenson wrote: > This is the where we fundamentally disagree - I would prefer to discover > these rare cases at test/runtime What is the advantage of discovering at runtime things that could be caught by the compiler? -- Cédric -- You received this mess

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

This is the where we fundamentally disagree - I would prefer to discover these rare cases at test/runtime (minus Spring's crazy long stack trace). Most of the time they are system probs/config probs/bugs. And once in awhile they are something that should be handled. 2011/3/28 Cédric Beust ♔ >

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Casper Bang wrote: > Hardly, as you mention yourself, he hasn't been involved in hardcore > VM work for many years - nor does he appear to follow the JDK mailling- > lists. > To be precise, he hasn't been involved in anything that's Java related since the late 90

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Wright wrote: I'll freely admit that this is a diversion, but... isn't that an argument > against Spring, far more than being an argument in favour for Checked > Exceptions? > My anecdote is much more about the weakness of unchecked exceptions than it is ab

[The Java Posse] BTrace vs Resin 3.1.8

hi: I want to use btrace to trace a web application running at Resin 3.1.8,but I was beaten by resin's powerful class loader. When the btrace agent attched to the resin process,the class not found will be appear at the resin logs. Does anynoe use btrace at resin 3.1.8? Thanks. -- d0ng

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

2011/3/28 Cédric Beust ♔ > By the way, here is something that happens fairly frequently around me (it > just occurred to me that this was relevant to our current discussion). > > Someone writes a Spring-based functionality, deploys it and it blows up > with hundreds of lines of stack trace in the

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On 28 March 2011 14:43, Phil wrote: > Now I thought we were discussing how to deal with checked and > unchecked exceptions in Java (the language, not the platform). That > much was clear to me at the beginning, at least! The solution for me > is to be pragmatic and adopt the most appropriate appr

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

By the way, here is something that happens fairly frequently around me (it just occurred to me that this was relevant to our current discussion). Someone writes a Spring-based functionality, deploys it and it blows up with hundreds of lines of stack trace in the unique way that Spring apps usually

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 6:38 AM, Casper Bang wrote: > I struggle to see the pro-checked-exception people's argument against > such a step towards greater leniency, not a single unit-test would > fail > You seem to be seeing "Not a single unit test would fail" as a good thing in the same way peop

Re: [The Java Posse] James Gosling goes to Google

I hope it's either the GVM or a Java.next. I think Google is the only company that could pull it off other than Oracle. And I don't see Oracle ever replacing Java. They milk their technologies until they are dead. On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Jan Goyvaerts wrote: > What will he be doing

Re: [The Java Posse] Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

Personally I see interesting possibilities with one of these servers sitting inside my network. Perhaps very close to my source repository, or code review/wiki software and integrated with my branches. Vineet -- Founder, Architexa - www.architexa.com Understand & Document Code In Seconds On M

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

> I could guess it might mean that he could be working on the Dalvik VM. > That would be like a step back in time going back to when he was > involved with the JVM. Hardly, as you mention yourself, he hasn't been involved in hardcore VM work for many years - nor does he appear to follow the JDK ma

Re: [The Java Posse] Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Jan Goyvaerts wrote: > Budget reasons ? > > I suppose you'll need a far less heavy computer compared to using the IDE > locally. > I've heard that Googlers code on Cr-48s, so maybe it's possible. Wouldn't that mean also offshoring your development database, serve

Re: [The Java Posse] Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

Budget reasons ? I suppose you'll need a far less heavy computer compared to using the IDE locally. On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 18:02, Martijn Verburg wrote: > I'd use one if you could have 2 developers working on the same source > file. I saw a demo of this for an Eclipse incubator project, sadly

Re: [The Java Posse] Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

I'd use one if you could have 2 developers working on the same source file. I saw a demo of this for an Eclipse incubator project, sadly it never saw the light of day, but man some of my distributed teams would love this. Cheers, Martijn On 28 March 2011 16:53, Moandji Ezana wrote: > A lot are

[The Java Posse] Are cloud IDEs a good idea?

A lot are being announced, at the moment: Eclipse's Orion and OrionHub eXo's Cloud IDE Cloud9 IDE >From the user's side, not being able to work at all if the IDE provider service goes down seems like a big drawback. Th

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

Speaking of GO and Time with references to Time Traveling TARDISes, What about really taking GO back in time and rebranding the language as "GOTO". On Mar 28, 4:43 pm, Chris Koerner wrote: > He's going to be working on GO.   :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

In that case I look forward to GO's Date / Time library implementation. On Mar 28, 4:43 pm, Chris Koerner wrote: > He's going to be working on GO.   :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to jav

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

I could guess it might mean that he could be working on the Dalvik VM. That would be like a step back in time going back to when he was involved with the JVM. I would expect Oracle to be pretty annoyed if the individual associated with the creation of Java goes over to work on Dalvik especially gi

Re: [The Java Posse] James Gosling goes to Google

He's going to be working on GO. :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For m

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Carl Jokl wrote: > I think it may just be that lot of people are trying to open this > entry at the same time. It is not just failing to find it, it is > trying to open the page but just hanging indefinitely. I read it on Google Reader. Here it is: "Through som

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

The #1 reason people code in java is that's what their job requires. And even if you could ditch java - ditching java means ditching the community, IDEs, tools, etc. So people seek out solutions to their pain, that's what this thread is about. On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 2:59 AM, Bruce Chapman wro

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

I think it may just be that lot of people are trying to open this entry at the same time. It is not just failing to find it, it is trying to open the page but just hanging indefinitely. I suppose I am on on a University Network so perhaps I just need to insert more tuition fees to continue. -- Yo

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

Belgians can't open the site either. :-) On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 16:57, Carl Jokl wrote: > I can't even manage to open the homepage or anything. > > Is it because I am British? > > *kicks a can and sulks away* > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

I'm hitting the page from the UK just fine On 28 March 2011 15:57, Carl Jokl wrote: > I can't even manage to open the homepage or anything. > > Is it because I am British? > > *kicks a can and sulks away* > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "T

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

I can't even manage to open the homepage or anything. Is it because I am British? *kicks a can and sulks away* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe fr

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

Then you'll have to thank James Gosling for that. I saw it on his homepage too. On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 16:43, Carl Jokl wrote: > The page doesn't seem to be loading for me unless it is just > overloaded by volume of requests. I am just hoping not to be > Rickrolled. > > -- > You received this m

Re: [The Java Posse] James Gosling goes to Google

What will he be doing for Google, I wonder... The GVM ? :-) On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 16:32, Moandji Ezana wrote: > http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/next_step_on_the_road > > So I guess the t-shirts will be flying at Google I/O. > > Moandji > > -- > You received this message because you are

[The Java Posse] Re: James Gosling goes to Google

The page doesn't seem to be loading for me unless it is just overloaded by volume of requests. I am just hoping not to be Rickrolled. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.c

[The Java Posse] James Gosling goes to Google

http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/next_step_on_the_road So I guess the t-shirts will be flying at Google I/O. Moandji -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javaposse@googlegroups.com. To un

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

Now I thought we were discussing how to deal with checked and unchecked exceptions in Java (the language, not the platform). That much was clear to me at the beginning, at least! The solution for me is to be pragmatic and adopt the most appropriate approach (catch and handle, throw, wrap and throw.

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

> This can be fixed of course; make unhandled checked exceptions a warning, > but instead of using @SuppressWarnings, create a new annotation that accepts > a list of class types: > > @SuppressChecked(UnsupportedEncodingException.class) > public void whatever() { >     something that throws Uns

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > I'm flabbergasted. You commit the worst example of a strawman fallacy I've > seen in many many months, and then have the gall to complain about strawman > arguing. No, just that particular strawman. :) Seriously though, If you can ho

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Monday, March 28, 2011 2:19:02 PM UTC+2, Josh Berry wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 5:12 AM, Bruce Chapman > wrote: > > > > You seem to miss the point. It is the code that I cannot write due to > > checked exceptions, which makes me pro checked exceptions. > > So you are a fan of all of the

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Monday, March 28, 2011 9:12:31 AM UTC+2, Casper Bang wrote: > > keywords. How about we simply loosen the chain a bit, making checked > exceptions into warnings instead. IDE's and compilers will still > complain, but now the busy programmer can stay on his primary train of > thought without ge

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 5:12 AM, Bruce Chapman wrote: > > You seem to miss the point. It is the code that I cannot write due to > checked exceptions, which makes me pro checked exceptions. So you are a fan of all of the common mistakes that people make whereby they swallow or incorrectly wrap and

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On 28 March 2011 09:59, Bruce Chapman wrote: > On 28/03/2011 2:33 p.m., Kevin Wright wrote: > >> >> JVM platform? Not so... only one language there suffers checked >> exceptions. The platform overall is a Good Thing(tm) >> > > Languages aren't sentient so they don't suffer. A few people (who ar

[The Java Posse] Re: Android Openness Withering

Tech News Today covered this on Friday and I was yelling rude words at the car radio, if only because the situation is being badly misrepresented. The Register took the same line. As others have said here, Google have a history of holding back on the source code until after hardware has been relea

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On 28/03/2011 2:33 p.m., Kevin Wright wrote: JVM platform? Not so... only one language there suffers checked exceptions. The platform overall is a Good Thing(tm) Languages aren't sentient so they don't suffer. A few people (who are sentient) appear to suffer checked exceptions, those peopl

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

On 28/03/2011 12:19 a.m., Neil Swingler wrote: Let's assume for the sake of argument that the pro checked exception camp cannot convince the other side and vice versa. Let us also assume that both groups are large enough that their views cannot be dismissed by the other. The debate has gone on fo

[The Java Posse] Re: What's that javascript book the posse is always recommending?

Not exactly a book, but I recently facilitated a 6 week online Javascript course at Peer To Peer University (P2PU). The entire contents (with aggregated videos from Douglas Crockford, links for further reading, exercises, etc) are online at http://webcraftp2p.appspot.com/courses/course/javascript10

[The Java Posse] Re: How to deal with CheckedExceptions

> Checked exceptions don't count as stronger typing, they still don't force > you to deal with them correctly as an alternative to the expected return, > they occur in a shadow type system. Huh I am confused, nothing exists that can force you to use subclassing "correctly", or equality etc. etc. I