On Oct 29, 6:50 pm, Serge Boulay serge.bou...@gmail.com wrote:
kind of what I was getting at. A company that has that much money has no
problem funding a Java team that consists of 4 people. I
think it's their way of getting people to develop their platform.
Well no, not really. Assuming
On 28 Okt., 20:42, Rob Ross rob.r...@gmail.com wrote:
If that's the case, exactly *what* threat does Java currently pose for the
consumer desktop, specifically Apple's desktop?
I can think of three more reasons why Apple doesn't like platforms
like Java or Flash - please correct me if I'm
I'm not sure you're screwed in an applet or webstart as you can still,
from JavaScript, prompt the user to install Java if it's missing.
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm guessing you overestimate how cumbersome this would be in a web
app, but
Yup, that's one of the few use cases where you're indeed affected (a
lot!) by this news. However, instead of dancing Steve Jobs' jig, why
not just turn it into a webapp? Java / Applets aren't really known for
their media preview abilities anyway - what can you preview in applets/
jws which can't
It's rather blindingly obvious that Jobs was talking about mobile
java / client-side java at the time. At that time (and still today),
www.apple.com was running java.
On Oct 28, 6:54 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ ced...@beust.com wrote:
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot
No, your argument does not make sense.
Java Desktop is no threat today. Right. But, this isn't just about
today, it's about the future. Two options:
1. Java Desktop becomes a threat. It makes sense for apple to stop
this in its tracks.
2. Java Desktop will never be a threat. It makes sense for
On Oct 29, 2:39 pm, Ricky Clarkson ricky.clark...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not sure you're screwed in an applet or webstart as you can still,
from JavaScript, prompt the user to install Java if it's missing.
Speaking from personal experiences, that's a maintenance nightmare.
You can do all kind of
2. Java Desktop will never be a threat. It makes sense for apple to
stop spending the resources on keeping it up to date.
Isn't it a drop in the bucket for a company that has close to 50 billion
dollars in the bank to keep Java alive on the Mac?
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Reinier
Isn't it a drop in the bucket for a company that has close to 50 billion
dollars in the bank to keep Java alive on the Mac?
Connect the dots. Apple does not like Java. In light of that, any
further analysis seems pointless. I'll bet you, they like it so little
they won't even donate their
This is simple: Apple figures that 1 of the 2 options is true. If 1,
then they should kill it. If 2, then they shouldn't waste money on it.
I don't see how Apple sees an upside to spending any money supporting
Java on the Mac -- given that they want everything other than native,
kind of what I was getting at. A company that has that much money has no
problem funding a Java team that consists of 4 people. I
think it's their way of getting people to develop their platform.
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't it a drop in the
That might be an interesting way for Oracle to sponsor development. Sort of
an Oracle Summer of Code.
Cheers,
Mark
card.ly: http://card.ly/phidias51
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Serge Boulay serge.bou...@gmail.comwrote:
kind of what I was getting at. A company that has that much money
It's more than a drop in the bucket if you want to do it right. Also,
it takes talented engineers and those could be working on other
projects.
On Oct 29, 6:55 pm, Serge Boulay serge.bou...@gmail.com wrote:
2. Java Desktop will never be a threat. It makes sense for apple to
stop spending the
Why? Folks keep saying this but I simply don't understand why.
It's at the same time better and worse than what you're saying, but
mostly you're just plain wrong.
It's better in that (A) If you don't do any swing stuff (and who
does?), this news is irrelevant, and (B) If you *DO* do swing stuff,
You're misrepresenting what apple is doing (or misunderstanding).
Apple isn't trying to bash java - they are trying to force all apps
seen by apple consumers to be either vanilla web OR apple-controlled
CoreX/Cocoa. client-side Java is just one of the many casualties of
this process, but
Even with most of I doubt you're right. Point-by-Point:
1. Even if NetBeans had 100% of the IDE market, not that much changed.
As I already wrote in the OP, NetBeans runs just fine on non-apple
JVMs on macs. A little bit of spit and polish to deal with the new
X11.app based chrome would be a fine
The CCTV app I work on is used on Windows, Linux, Solaris and OS X.
It's not in-house only, at all, and does get used by non-technical
people.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot
reini...@gmail.com wrote:
Even with most of I doubt you're right. Point-by-Point:
1. Even if
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 4:58 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote:
It's better in that (A) If you don't do any swing stuff (and who
does?), this news is irrelevant
I don't believe Swing is used as infrequently as you seem to imply. I
see it used quite often for applications
On Oct 28, 8:53 am, Mark Volkmann r.mark.volkm...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't believe Swing is used as infrequently as you seem to imply. I
see it used quite often for applications developed to be run inside a
single company. I have developed many such applications and two of
them were written
On 10/28/2010 05:17 PM, Craig Kelley wrote:
Another anecdotal Swing story: Our company has a JNLP application
built on top of JMF that allows users of any platform to preview media
files served up via a servlet -- that is, every platform apart from
OSX 10.7. I can't imagine asking a user to
I'd like to use JNLP, but it's overly picky about which server it
comes from. We host our client software both on our website and in
the webpages that come with every device that we sell. If a user
installed from the device they bought, they could not receive updates
automatically from the
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote:
You're misrepresenting what apple is doing (or misunderstanding).
Apple isn't trying to bash java
Steve Jobs in
2007http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/ultimate-iphone-faqs-list-part-2/
:
“Java’s not worth
On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com
wrote:
You're misrepresenting what apple is doing (or misunderstanding).
Apple isn't trying to bash java
Steve Jobs in 2007:
“Java’s not worth building in.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Rob Ross rob.r...@gmail.com wrote:
If that's the case, exactly *what* threat does Java currently pose for the
consumer desktop, specifically Apple's desktop?
The fact that developers can write Java apps on Windows or Linux and have
these magically run on
On Oct 28, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Rob Ross rob.r...@gmail.com wrote:
If that's the case, exactly *what* threat does Java currently pose for the
consumer desktop, specifically Apple's desktop?
The fact that developers can write Java apps
On top of that, Jobs has this obsession with purity of tools that has him
convinced that the only way to write good Mac OS applications should be to
use tools provided by Apple exclusively.
Not strictly true, given that MonoTouch is being quite successful in
letting C# devs write apps, with
I truly couldn't agree more! Biologists have shown us time and time again
that monocultures are far too vulnerable to external threats.
Your chosen platform may be OSX, or .NET, or it may be the JVM; it doesn't
really matter... Ultimately, trying to keep out alternative languages is a
doomed
Thanks Reinier. I also blogged about this -- with screenshots -- on
the weekend. Admittedly the screenshots aren't very exciting, they
just look like normal Eclipse (which is the point).
http://njbartlett.name/2010/10/24/eclipse-soylatte-no-x11.html
In a sense, one could say that Apple hasn't
Except, it seems apparent that Apple wants to banish all Java! So to
claim that they are only deprecating Swing/AWT is a bit of a Cumbayá
twist.
In a sense, one could say that Apple hasn't deprecated Java at
all... just Swing/AWT.
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On 10/27/2010 08:00 AM, Neil Bartlett wrote:
Thanks Reinier. I also blogged about this -- with screenshots -- on
the weekend. Admittedly the screenshots aren't very exciting, they
just look like normal Eclipse (which is the point).
http://njbartlett.name/2010/10/24/eclipse-soylatte-no-x11.html
Fabrizio,
Wrong and wrong again.
First, 90% of Java developers do not use Swing or AWT. I don't have
exact figures but many do pure server-side or web development. They do
not care about desktop Java libraries beyond having a working IDE.
Second, SoyLatte is substantially derived from OpenJDK
Apparent? From what?
On Oct 27, 8:59 am, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote:
Except, it seems apparent that Apple wants to banish all Java! So to
claim that they are only deprecating Swing/AWT is a bit of a Cumbayá
twist.
In a sense, one could say that Apple hasn't deprecated
No, it won't. All the innards are OpenJDK. Also, OpenJDK *itself* runs
fine on a mac too. I haven't bothered to boot either eclipse or
netbeans on top of openJDK, but if they both run fine on Soylatte,
there's absolutely no reason that running on OpenJDK is going to take
man-months of effort.
On 10/27/2010 11:09 AM, Neil Bartlett wrote:
Second, SoyLatte is substantially derived from OpenJDK and is
therefore eligible to receive a TCK licence from Oracle. It is not
incomplete, it supports Swing and AWT via X11, which may give crappy
usability but is good enough for TCK compliance.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote:
Also, where did you pull '90%' [of Java developers using Swing/AWT] from?
I'd say its more like 1%.
On projects, we've often used AWT classes for simple image manipulation,
like resizing user-uploaded photos. So
Fabrizio,
Has the Apple JVM disappeared from existing Macs already?? Why the
rush?
As Reinier points out, OpenJDK itself runs on the Mac today. Getting
certified binaries is not going to take months of work.
Neil
On Oct 27, 10:25 am, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
On
Hi Moandji,
Yes that's true, but I don't think that use case will be affected.
Those classes are not going to be removed.
If you'd like to supply a fragment of test code using AWT image
manipulation, I can verify that it works.
Regards
Neil
On Oct 27, 10:25 am, Moandji Ezana mwa...@gmail.com
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Neil Bartlett njbartl...@gmail.com wrote:
Fabrizio,
Wrong and wrong again.
First, 90% of Java developers do not use Swing or AWT.
I question that percentage. Maybe my company is an exception, but we
have had and continue to have many consulting projects that
Mark, my apologies, this is perhaps a case of English being too
ambiguous for what I wanted to say.
My intention was to refute Fabrizio's claim that 90% of developers
would be affected by the lack of good Swing support. Therefore what I
really mean to say is something like this: the proportion of
Realistically, I think serious Java developers who use Macs are going to
have to dual-boot into Windows or Linux -- at least if they're doing
anything that's not strictly server-side.
That's what every Mac owner wanted anyway, a really cute machine running
Linux, right? :-|
On 10/27/2010
Realistically, I think serious Java developers who use Macs are going to
have to dual-boot into Windows or Linux -- at least if they're doing
anything that's not strictly server-side.
That's what every Mac owner wanted anyway, a really cute machine running
Linux, right? :-|
Writing from my
Well let's see... the deprecation of Cocoa bindings + the lack of Java
on iDevices + refusal to accept Java apps through Mac app store +
deprecation of Mac JRE? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I sence a
common theme here and a likely end game.
On Oct 27, 11:16 am, Reinier Zwitserloot
On Oct 26, 10:49 am, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote:
I just ran eclipse on Soylatte on mac and you see absolutely no
difference (SWT is useful for once!). Even NetBeans on soylatte (which
predates lots of font aliasing tricks in the OpenJDK IIRC) looks more
or less decent. I
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 20:17, Alexey Zinger inline_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
I was wondering the same thing, as well as: what is the big deal with
running under X11 on the Mac? I'm not a daily OSX user, but I've played
around with OSX on the Mac some years ago. Was it OpenOffice that ran that
X11 is needed only for NetBeans (and IntelliJ). Not for eclipse, as
eclipse uses SWT, and these days SWT runs on Cocoa. If you then
start / debug a swing app in eclipse, X11 will start, so the swing app
can run.
On Oct 26, 7:13 pm, Craig Kelley namo...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:49 am,
On Oct 26, 6:13 pm, Craig Kelley namo...@gmail.com wrote:
But this is all using X11, correct?
My reading is that Eclipse will run against OpenJDK on Cocoa, but its
hard to see how Netbeans is getting Swing except via X-Windows.
Duncan
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On 10/26/2010 09:15 PM, dun...@oneeyedmen.com wrote:
On Oct 26, 6:13 pm, Craig Kelleynamo...@gmail.com wrote:
But this is all using X11, correct?
My reading is that Eclipse will run against OpenJDK on Cocoa, but its
hard to see how Netbeans is getting Swing except via X-Windows.
Duncan
I
So, unless you're making applets or webstart apps, this is non-news.
If you ARE making applets or webstart apps, you're royally screwed.
Excellent news. That means the Twitter petition spam can end now!
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