Since (the text of) Miriam's song echoes verse 1 of
the chapter, one may speculate that there was call and response between the men
and the women.
ek
- Original Message -
From:
Marvin
Margoshes
To: World music from a Jewish slant
- Original Message -
From:
Sam
Weiss
To: World music from a Jewish slant
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 2:51
PM
Subject: Miriam's Song
At 02:26 PM 2/21/03, Fred Blumenthal wrote:
Is there scripture
saying that the Hebrew men excused themselves when M
At 12:46 AM 2/21/03, Judith R Cohen wrote:
I was brought up to see Judaism as full of
adult choices and one's own concscience.
That is indeed one of several approaches to Judaism. A much older
understanding has it that adults face an overwhelming range of choices, and
that in a healthy human bein
Title: Re: kol isha in action
on 2/21/03 11:53 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no question but that someone decided to make policies that had not been considered and made my the committee that organized the benefit. Obviously, they need to sit down together and decid
In a message dated 2/21/2003 2:07:29 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Fred, that's an argument for the wrong side of the debate.
Yes, Miriam's singing was clearly only for the women. Exodus 15:20-21.
Debbie Friedman's song makes a nice female celebration out of it:
And the w
Khaverim --
I hate to interrupt the quarterly renewal of the kol isha battle -- and
I won't bore you with a repetition of my position on it -- but my latest
record column, which has only been sitting on my editor's desk since the
beginning of December (I love this business) is viewable at:
htt
I apologize if you found it condescending- it was meant to be funny.
- Original Message -
From: "avi finegold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action
>
> --- Eliezer Kaplan <[E
Rabbi's tend to be more lenient in cases of d'rabbanan- for example, safek
d'rabbana l'kula (in the case of a doubt regarding a rabbinic prohibition,
the ruling goes towards leniency).
But this isn't the place for that discussion.
- Original Message -
From: "avi finegold" <[EMAIL PROTECTE
At 02:26 PM 2/21/03, Fred Blumenthal wrote:
Is there scripture
saying that the Hebrew men excused themselves when Miriam sang by the sea
of reeds?
Fred, that's an argument for the wrong side of the debate.
Yes, Miriam's singing was clearly only for the women. Exodus
15:20-21.
__
--- Fred Blumenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I get the list in digest form, which is messy. I
> suggest all posts NOT
> contain the preceeding list, as most posts wind up
> appearing numerous
> times. And somehow, mixed into the discussion of
> Kol Isha and the
> accompanying extraneous H
I get the list in digest form, which is messy. I suggest all posts NOT contain the preceeding list, as most posts wind up appearing numerous times. And somehow, mixed into the discussion of Kol Isha and the accompanying extraneous HTML clutter, appears "Love, Rosa Parks," numerous times. I woul
Please unsuscribe me from this list. Thank you for allowing me to be a part
in the past.
PHAB MUSIC US
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of avi finegold
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:41 AM
To: World music from a Jewish slant
Subject: Re: here
I think it is good that this discussion comes up periodically. It is a reminder to all
of us of something that divides many of us, and of something that directly affects
many of us. I have strong, not so tolerant feelings on the subject, myself, but they
have already been well represented by ear
Moishe,
Thanks for sending Noa's US dates. I have
added them to the JERD calendar. PLEASE send me any dates you have for any
of your performers and I will be more than happy to post them to the Jewish
Entertainment Resources International web calendar.
Judy :)
Judy Caplan Ginsburgh, Pro
Please unsubscribe me, I'm being overwhelmed with religious
discussions instead of musicical ones. Todah
PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE ME NOW!
> Noa exudes an exotic and sexy siren call as she captivates audiences
> with her arabesque array of Hebrew and English tunes, and expressive
> blend of folk, jazz and Middle Eastern rhythms. > Hope to see you there!
>
> -Moishe Rosenfeld
> Golden Land Concerts & Connection
> Jewish Music for th
--- Bob Wiener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> It seems to me that if a meal is part of the even,
> especially if the simcha involves a seudat mitzvah
> ("mitzvah meal") the early departure solution
> typically creates the following problem:
> Presence through the birkat hamazo
I'm doing some programming tomorrow for teens with Down syndrome and have
adapted a couple of Yiddish and Israeli dances for use with this group.
I've also got a program of adapted wheel chair dances for people with
mobility/cognitive disorders, which I use with work in a Jewish old age
home. I
In a message dated 2/21/2003 11:40:14 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It seems to me that if a meal is part of the even, especially if the simcha involves a seudat mitzvah ("mitzvah meal") the early departure solution typically creates the following problem:
Presence through t
Israel's leading international concert and recording artist, Noa (known in Israel as Achinoam Nini) is touring the U.S. in the coming weeks.
NOA US TOUR 2003
February 25 - 7:30pm - Phoenix, AZ - Scottsdale Center For the Arts 480-425-5340
February 27 - Forest Hills, NY - Forest Hills Jewish Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
It seems to me that if a meal is part of the even,
especially if the simcha involves a seudat mitzvah ("mitzvah meal") the
early departure solution typically creates the following
problem:
Presence through the birkat hamazon ("grace after
meals") (including, for example,
> still disagree, how is it that in certain cases we
> can break rabbinic
> law if we *have* to but we still avoid breaking
> torah law? Examples of
> this are equipment used in hospitals on shabbat
> (monstly in israel),
> another example is the electric wheelchair that my
> friend can use on
>
--- Leonard Koenick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "in
> this case some people cannot allow themselves
> halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore a
> concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> feel uncomfortable."
>
> .
> avi
>
> That's the same tired old argument that always c
B"H Munich
>
> > At what point does
> > a speaking voice become singing? Where is the
> line?
>
> hmmm thats actually a good one.
NO, It´s a bad one! the definition
is a woman´s VOICE (KOL ISHA), not her singing,
though the two, I´m told, are linked.
For crying out loud...
Alex
_
--- Bob Wiener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 3. Perhaps making even more sense, if the concern
> for kol isha is really hearing the kol isha (and not
> mar'at ayin -- the appearance to others present),
> why not provide ear plugs? (If attendees observe
> that they came to hear music, just not tha
B"H Munich
A gitn Shabbos, yidn!
Avraham Baruch
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+
Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network
Just don't do
> > it on a list about Jewish Music.
>
> But that's what this point is about, Jordan--Jewish
> Music.
well at least we stand together on something Lori, i
mean this is where jewish law and musical performance
intersect, why shouldnt we talk about it
> At what point does
> a
- Original Message -
From: "avi finegold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> >
> > That is the esssence of my objection to the
> > practice. A woman is hurt
> > because
At the risk of making a very long thread even longer, I wish to mention that I wrote my comment on this subject without seeing that Lorele's original posting had to do with a public concert which was not under Orthodox sponsorship. I need to ammend my last note accordingly.
There is no question b
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Lox & Vodka has performed at non-orthodox, private
> functions where orthodox
> Jews would be present. The food was kosher and the
> men covered their heads.
> We have been asked to hold off with any female
> vocals or music that would
> encourage mixed dancing
> --- Dan Jacobs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, avi finegold wrote:
> >
> > > all it says int he torah is that you should not
> > cook a
> > > kid in its mothers milk.
> >
> > Not true, it gives lists of Animals that are kosher
> > and that are not, but
> > I agree with your po
ok
your central point seems to be twofold, one that
orthodox people who have a problem with these concerts
should just stay away. i could not agree with you
more. like i mentioned above i have always the seen
the reponsability to fall on the male not to attend an
event rather than a woman to not
>
> That is the esssence of my objection to the
> practice. A woman is hurt
> because some men (not all) are sexually aroused by
> the sound of a woman's
> voice. It would be better to teach those men how to
> control an
> inappropriate emotion.
>
>
>
do you think that every issue of modesty
--- Eliezer Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> IMO in the isolated yeshivish communities of Europe
> the prohibition may have had lots of relevance- God
> knows what might happen to the poor yeshiva bochrim
> should they get turned on. But in modern society IMO
> the prohibition loses it's releva
--- Eliezer Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a
> human
> >
>
> Disagree- there is a definite distinction in the
> Orthodox tradition between
> d'rabbanan (from the rabbi's) and d'oraitha (from
> the written or oral
> traditions).
>
>
yes but
In a message dated 2/21/2003 10:07:21 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Why is there "uncomfortness" more important that the uncomfortness of those
who oppose it or are subjected to the discrimination?
This is a discussion that comes up annually--maybe it would be good to archi
--- Lori Cahan-Simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dan, I appreciate your attempt at lightening up the
> situation, but the
> fact is, that is what it comes down to. I could go
> into why kashrut
> made sense at the time it was developed, but I'm
> really too tired since
> I get up at 5:30 to g
--- Dan Jacobs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, avi finegold wrote:
>
> > all it says int he torah is that you should not
> cook a
> > kid in its mothers milk.
>
> Not true, it gives lists of Animals that are kosher
> and that are not, but
> I agree with your point, most of Kash
"in
this case some people cannot allow themselves
halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore a
concession must be made to ensure that no one will
feel uncomfortable."
- Original Message -
From: "Judith R Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:46 AM
Subject: here we go again
> some
> Orthodox rabbis might be there. No, they could not possibly have a
> woman sing at th
on 2/21/03 6:30 AM, Lori Cahan-Simon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Not because they are illegitimate. Not because I follow the
>> restrictions of Kol Isha(which I do not) . Simply because a discussion
>> of a principle of Halacha, even one with admittedly various
>> interpretations, is fruitless
on 2/21/03 6:30 AM, Lori Cahan-Simon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Don't assume you don't have to be upfront about who is in your group,
>
> I was merely the hired hand for this job, and not present at the
> organizers' meeting, therefore not able to address any of this, and when
> I attempted t
on 2/21/03 6:30 AM, Lori Cahan-Simon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Quite frankly, I think that Lori should find a feminist support group
>> to vent her feelings.
>
> I don't think that was a necessary statement. I believe this is
> absolutely the appropriate venue to discuss the issue.
I know y
I have
been dismayed over the years at how readily we Jews will allow ourselves to
treat each other with contempt and disrespect. I am very
disappointed to see this happen on this list. I have not been around long
enough to have witnessed this Kol Isha thread before, however I am dist
Perhaps this attempt to strike a balance is
something of a fool's goal, but at the risk of being called foolish once
again...
1. A pre-announced program would facilitate the
execution of the idea of having a time devoted to kol isha .
2. At some events it might make more sense to have
kol is
Jordan wrote:
I really wish all those who have not been through the Kol Isha wars on
this list would check the old postings if they are available and
consult them.
Just because we've discussed an issue before doesn't mean there isn't
room for another. I remember every round we've had over the
LOX & VODKA
Widely Acclaimed
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202/966-7270
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I am always struck by the intensity to which we react to kol isha. It is a law that hits a raw nerve for so many people on both sides of the issue. While I too have very strong feelings about
Hi Yosl and Peggy and all my friends on the list,
Having calmed down myself -- I was incensed at the insult this was for such
a talented, dedicated colleague -- I want to summarize.
For us, it's really not a discussion as to the validity of rabbinic claims,
etc. Let's leave that to those for w
> some
> Orthodox rabbis might be there. No, they could not possibly have a
> woman sing at this event.
I still am utterly mystified about why the Orthodox men, rabbis or
otherwise, who feel they can't listen to a women's voice, can't just
stay away from the event, mind their own business, and
I think another principle involved is that of not embarassing a person. If
organizers of an event want to have only male singers, they should engage
performers with that in mind from the beginning and make sure that they
have done their homework as to who the vocalists are in each group. If the
Ort
Title: Re: kol isha in action
on 2/20/03 11:08 PM, david lowther at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I imagine this may be easy for you to write because you are a man. These fundamentalist pinheads wouldn't have you wearing a burqa. Let the would-be-offenders stuff their fingers into their ears, or l
I imagine this may be easy for you to write
because you are a man. These fundamentalist pinheads wouldn't have you
wearing a burqa. Let the would-be-offenders stuff their fingers into their
ears, or leave the room to stand outside in little disgruntled minyans,
bewailing the manners of the
I think Lori was right to post her story, because it was a news ite. I
happen to be on her side, but frankly, the debate which is ensuing is
one we've all heard before on this list and we're not going to get any
new insights from it, although we may occasionally reach new heights of
vitriol, a cat
Title: Re: kol isha in action
on 2/20/03 9:31 PM, Sylvie Braitman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Voice is a sensual thing. It's organic to the body and as such "speaks" about the body. This is why we feel so moved and deeply touched (we love it, we hate it), because of its organic nature.
It does
- Original Message -
From: "Eliezer Kaplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> > according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a human
> >
>
> Disagree- there is a defin
- Original Message -
From: "Dan Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> Lori,
>
> I agree with your sentiment here, however Kashrut does not make sense and
> also mos
This would be a great thing if it worked, but it doesn't.
:-(
Seth Rogovoy
author, "The Essential Klezmer: A Music Lover's Guide to Jewish Roots
and Soul Music"
www.rogovoy.com
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
I want to inform you about an internet radio station that plays a variety of
Klezmer
Music 24/7 called Radio Free Klezmer. It can be reached through the website
Live365.com. Just search by klezmer music and you will find this station.
It plays everything from Naftute Brandwein to Hasidic New
Lori Cahan-Simon wrote: One can say they
> come from the divine, but this one surely sounds like an excuse to
> propagate male control to me.
This practice also takes opportunities to work at earning one's living away from for
female vocalists and puts them into the hands of (sometimes less-qu
IMO in the isolated yeshivish communities of Europe
the prohibition may have had lots of relevance- God knows what might happen to
the poor yeshiva bochrim should they get turned on. But in modern society IMO
the prohibition loses it's relevance. Can't walk out the door without being
bombard
> according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a human
>
Disagree- there is a definite distinction in the Orthodox tradition between
d'rabbanan (from the rabbi's) and d'oraitha (from the written or oral
traditions).
- Original Message -
From: "avi finegold" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Worl
Dan, I appreciate your attempt at lightening up the situation, but the
fact is, that is what it comes down to. I could go into why kashrut
made sense at the time it was developed, but I'm really too tired since
I get up at 5:30 to go to work every day, and it's really a book-length
subject, as
Voice is a sensual thing. It's organic to the
body and as such "speaks" about the body. This is why we feel so moved and
deeply touched (we love it, we hate it), because of its organic
nature.
It does not matter whether it's a male or female
voice, there is always something very physical abo
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, avi finegold wrote:
> all it says int he torah is that you should not cook a
> kid in its mothers milk.
Not true, it gives lists of Animals that are kosher and that are not, but
I agree with your point, most of Kashrut is Rabbinic.
> Kol Isha was created by a human.
>
> acc
Lori,
I agree with your sentiment here, however Kashrut does not make sense and
also most of the Kashrut laws are Rabbinical.
The point of Kol Isha is not about offending a man, it is about 'arousal'
apparently as a man, I can't listen to you sing in case I get aroused and
as we know, Men have no
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, avi finegold wrote:
>
> --- Dan Jacobs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
> > offensive and
> > un-necessary),
>
>
> youre right about the law part but what makes you
> think you have the right to pass judgement for
> or
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Sylvia Schildt wrote:
> Kol isha - makes the gorge rise.
>
> And it's not a custom common to all Orthodox Jewry. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT
> POINT.
As a British (modern) Orthodox Jew, I can say that Kol Isha is the
mainstream here, certainly as far as the Rabbinate go. Also, Kol
Didn't mean to suggest that you were being dismissive, however I think
that to win these arguments within the Orthodox world, we need to be very
careful how we put the case forward.
I totally agree that precedent is important, it is the best was to make
change, as long as we are able to justify it
--- Lori Cahan-Simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> example. If you go to an
> event with kosher food, everyone can still eat it.
> Kashrut is spelled
> out in the Torah.
all it says int he torah is that you should not cook a
kid in its mothers m
I'd love to. I have read about this very special event before. Unfortunately
I don't
get in to Lod until Monday afternoon coming from New York.
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+
Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org
A service of Hebrew College,
The answer seems obvious. PUBLICITY regarding who is performing, including the vocalist of course. Then those who may not feel comfortable do not have to attend and it saves lots of embarrassment, etc. It is absolutely awful to tell a performer she will not be allowed to perform at the last minu
Title: Re: kol isha in action
Maybe not parallel but definitely tangential. I spoke with a presenter who told me she couldn't abide the saltiness and dried out taste of kosher meat, so even there it can be an issue. She was glad to have an option.
Even as halacha the kol isha thing is debatable
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