Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-08-01 Thread Danny O'Brien
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:48:59PM -0700, Steve Weis wrote: > I think what you're saying was true in the past, but the game is > changing with modern hardware. There have been advances in CPU > features that make it possible to reduce the trust perimeter to just > the CPU and TPM. If I trust those

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-31 Thread Steve Weis
I think what you're saying was true in the past, but the game is changing with modern hardware. There have been advances in CPU features that make it possible to reduce the trust perimeter to just the CPU and TPM. If I trust those two components, I can privately compute on remote hardware, even if

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-31 Thread Danny O'Brien
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 03:18:58PM -0700, Steve Weis wrote: > DRM technologies have a flip side as privacy-preserving technology. > It's all a matter of whose data is being protected and who owns the > hardware. > > We generally think of DRM in cases where the data owner is large > company and an

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-31 Thread Mitar
Hi! On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > What Doctorow describes wrt Trusted Platform Modules is > making current crummy computer security slightly better > by adding hardware crypto, and only slightly better _if_ > the hardware does what it claims to be doing and _if_ the >

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-31 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
On 07/26/2013 06:18 PM, Steve Weis wrote: DRM technologies have a flip side as privacy-preserving technology. What is the technology that lets me make my data searchable but not copyable? What is the technology that lets Google share my data with a few third parties which I approve but no othe

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-27 Thread Mitar
Hi! On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > There are plenty of examples of well-respected writers, musicians, and > performers doing the same, whether its funding beforehand or politely > requesting core > fans for payment after the work is produced. I find this essay interes

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread LilBambi
These TPMs are being abused. You should be able to install your Linux on your general purpose computer. Even if Windows and the OEM enable the TPM, you should be given the ability to disable that. And that is not the case in many OEM Windows 8 computers. I dual boot all my computers. I have the rig

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread Richard Brooks
Also interestingly explored in Vernor Vinge's "Rainbow's End" On 07/26/2013 06:18 PM, Steve Weis wrote: > DRM technologies have a flip side as privacy-preserving technology. > It's all a matter of whose data is being protected and who owns the > hardware. > > We generally think of DRM in cases wh

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread Steve Weis
DRM technologies have a flip side as privacy-preserving technology. It's all a matter of whose data is being protected and who owns the hardware. We generally think of DRM in cases where the data owner is large company and an individual owns the hardware. In this case, DRM stops you from copying d

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread Richard Brooks
Obviously, these issues have been very thoroughly discussed by Corey Doctorow and Larry Lessig. DRM has not proved to be effective at safeguarding intellectual property. It seems to be most effective as a tool in maintaining limited monopolies, since it stops other companies from investing in creat

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
On 07/26/2013 08:06 AM, Mitar wrote: Hi! On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Nick wrote: But his wider point that everything sucks if it's designed with advertising as the only business model is fair, and an important issue. DRM cannot be a fair and reasonable solution, needless to say, but it is

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread Mitar
Hi! On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Nick wrote: > But his wider point that everything sucks if it's designed with > advertising as the only business model is fair, and an important > issue. DRM cannot be a fair and reasonable solution, needless to > say, but it is a pity there isn't more imagina

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-26 Thread Guido Witmond
On 25-07-13 19:14, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > On 07/25/2013 07:14 AM, Mitar wrote: >> Hi! >> >> Some very good arguments *for* DRM on the web: >> >> http://unitscale.com/mb/bomb-in-the-garden/ On the first pages,the author makes this point: "The web is good at making information free". Which he co

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-25 Thread LilBambi
And as we all know, DRM doesn't keep out or prevent hacking, but it does impede the normal citizen from doing what they want to do with what they buy. Cory Doctorow's DRM Talk at Microsoft is still quite relevant. So much so that I actually placed a copy of it on my blog since 2004: http://bambis

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-25 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
On 07/25/2013 07:14 AM, Mitar wrote: Hi! Some very good arguments *for* DRM on the web: http://unitscale.com/mb/bomb-in-the-garden/ Sure. It's also _necessarily_ an argument against free software operating systems as well as an argument against general purpose computing. It is both of these

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-25 Thread Nick
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 04:14:56AM -0700, Mitar wrote: > Some very good arguments *for* DRM on the web: > > http://unitscale.com/mb/bomb-in-the-garden/ That's a very interesting article. Though the author isn't exactly arguing for DRM; his last paragraph calls out the W3C for their recent moves i

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-25 Thread Mitar
Hi! Some very good arguments *for* DRM on the web: http://unitscale.com/mb/bomb-in-the-garden/ Mitar -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-22 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
On 07/16/2013 10:15 AM, Nick Daly wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: On 07/15/2013 11:45 PM, Catherine Roy wrote: As a member of the HTML working group and the Restricted Media community group, my experience is that discussions within these groups surrounding the EM

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-17 Thread Danny O'Brien
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:52:06AM -0400, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Wed Jul 17 01:27:27 2013, Catherine Roy wrote: > > > >> Also, has the EFF's formal objection had any effect? > > > > To my knowledge, no information has yet been made

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-17 Thread Danny O'Brien
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 01:27:27AM -0400, Catherine Roy wrote: > Hi Jonathan, > > On 2013-07-16 02:04, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > >Hi Catherine, > >Thanks for the link! I didn't know about that effort until now. > > > >It seems like there are two fronts-- one, which you address by > >jettisoning EM

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-17 Thread Catherine Roy
Hi Joseph, On 2013-07-17 09:52, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: To my knowledge, no information has yet been made public regarding the outcome of this formal objection. There has been a second formal objection filed that is also awaiting resolution [6]. I have had a hard time figuring out what, ex

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-17 Thread Joseph Lorenzo Hall
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed Jul 17 01:27:27 2013, Catherine Roy wrote: > >> Also, has the EFF's formal objection had any effect? > > To my knowledge, no information has yet been made public regarding > the outcome of this formal objection. There has been a second > form

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-16 Thread Catherine Roy
Hi Jonathan, On 2013-07-16 02:04, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Hi Catherine, Thanks for the link! I didn't know about that effort until now. It seems like there are two fronts-- one, which you address by jettisoning EME in freedomhtml, and another which is to keep member organizations from standar

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-16 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
On 07/16/2013 10:15 AM, Nick Daly wrote: On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: On 07/15/2013 11:45 PM, Catherine Roy wrote: As a member of the HTML working group and the Restricted Media community group, my experience is that discussions within these groups surrounding the EM

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Daly
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > On 07/15/2013 11:45 PM, Catherine Roy wrote: >> >> As a member of the HTML working group and the Restricted Media community >> group, my experience is that discussions within these groups surrounding the >> EME draft have been extremely fru

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-15 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
On 07/15/2013 11:45 PM, Catherine Roy wrote: As a member of the HTML working group and the Restricted Media community group, my experience is that discussions within these groups surrounding the EME draft have been extremely frustrating. The same scenario as with Jeff Jaffe's blog post has hap

Re: [liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-15 Thread Catherine Roy
As a member of the HTML working group and the Restricted Media community group, my experience is that discussions within these groups surrounding the EME draft have been extremely frustrating. The same scenario as with Jeff Jaffe's blog post has happened there. The whole thing has been rather

[liberationtech] WC3 and DRM

2013-07-13 Thread Jonathan Wilkes
Hi List, Looking at the enormous list of members in the WC3 along with the fact that application membership is subject to final arbitrary approval by the current WC3, I'm concerned about the lack of democratic checks on their decision making. Example with Encrypted Media Extensions draft