On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:44:50PM +, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> Hi Willy,
>
> I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done.
So because people speak loudly at night below my window in summer, I
have to close the window and install a fan to get some air ? And all
the neigh
Hi Willy,
I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done.
I am not tired of the subject, quite the contrary. Please do not speak
for me in that regard. After many years of wandering in the toxic
wasteland, finally some actual progress.
Regards,
Daniel
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To unsubscribe fr
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:51:21PM +, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?
>
> Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I
> somehow got the feeling that you just characteri
On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?
Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I
somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re "open
and honest" as "endless and boring".
I agree that
On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 16:33 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?
Just do what I did and kill it with a /dev/null filter.
But wait! How did I see this email? Oh shit! It's come back from the
dead
-- Steve
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On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 09:00:37AM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed
> without evidence.
Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?
Thank you.
Willy
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On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Daniel Phillips
wrote:
> On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
>> both A (open and honest), and B (polite)...
>
> You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and
On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 09:23 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> >
> > > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> > > rhetoric and the Greeks believe
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
>
> > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
> > positions and arguing them thor
On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
> both A (open and honest), and B (polite)...
You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and
honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:48 -0400, Paul Gortmaker wrote:
> C'mon folks. This is beyond silly. Let us look at the things that we
> can really change, or at least influence change within. Things that
> really matter to linux today and tomorrow.
Ah, so there is middle ground between creationism an
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:26 PM, James Bottomley
wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips
>> wrote:
>> > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fund
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
> positions and arguing them thoroughly. It's only with the advent of
> Western European political
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips
> wrote:
> > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
> >> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that me
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips
wrote:
> On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
>> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your
>> opinion in a way that others might consider of
On 2013/7/23 9:39, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote:
>
>> IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the
>> time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team
>> is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team,
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote:
> IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the
> time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team
> is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet.
>
> Don't know if the
On 2013/7/21 21:22, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>> n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>>> >On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >
> >* Felipe Contreras wrote:
>>> >
> > >>As Linus already pointed out, not
On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >
> >* Felipe Contreras wrote:
>
> >>As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
> >
> >That's not the p
On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your
> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful.
Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> >
> > * Felipe Contreras wrote:
>
> >> As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
> >
> > That's not the point though, the point is to potentially rough
On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 16:43:53 -0400 Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
>
> > If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on
> > teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ...
>
> No, it's also based on interacti
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on
> teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ...
No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-)
-- Steve
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To unsubscribe f
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 14:56 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>
> > But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's
> > something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes
> > them more susceptible to personal
On 07/18/2013 11:03 PM, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
>>
>> Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into
>> sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me.
>>
>> It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you
>> maintain your own little corner of the world.
>
* Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> > > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
> > > don't mean in this thread.
> >
> > I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> > threats I've received vi
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:01:05PM +1000, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this...
> > >
> > > 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional
> > > rant? [My gues
Il 16/07/2013 20:27, James Bottomley ha scritto:
> I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of
> civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to
> do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument
> doesn't suit everyone, so it's
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:24:18PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
> >
> > Depends on details of your definition of abuse.
[snip]
> http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html
" "Always" and "Never" Statements - "Always"
ot;Darren Hart" , "Ingo Molnar" ,
> "Olivier Galibert" ,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List" , "stable"
> , "Linus Torvalds"
> , "Willy Tarreau"
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:48:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-disc
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626
>
> And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live:
> https://picasaweb.google.com
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:14 +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this...
> >
> > 1.Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional
> > rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing.
> > That said, I would be intere
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:19:34PM -0700, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08:31PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:42:44PM +0100, Al Viro wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>>
>> > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
>>
>> Depends on details of your definition of
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08:31PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > >
> > > [ ... ]
> > >>
> > >> The result: 75% of thei
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >>
> >> The result: 75% of their developers are women. If you give a flying
> >> fuck about diversity, and wan
Sarah Sharp wrote:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098
>
> On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel
> development, along with more than a few m
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> > Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.
>
> Point taken.
>
> I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to
> modify it a bit
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me.
> For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll,
> Lubin, EVER again.
It surprises me to see you calling someone names like that, Sarah. It
seems to be c
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:42:44PM +0100, Al Viro wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>
> > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
>
> Depends on details of your definition of abuse.
>
> > So we are down to the definition of verbal a
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:14:49AM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM,
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> I've said it several times in this thread. I think the tone of LKML has
> been getting more tame, and it's not your father's mailing list
> anymore. ;-)
Indeed.
Several (definitely more than 5) years ago, there was a presentation (IIRC
eve
> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.
Actually, it *not* clear. Without drawing fine distinctions about
the definition of "abusive", I think Linus's rants have a real purpose
at times.
One is so that *ev
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:51:38AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread.
> But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well.
[ comments removed not to give them too mu
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
> > don't mean in this thread.
>
> I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> threats I've received via email and my blog because of this threa
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux com
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 01:28:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 18:00 +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > > to get a wider range of developers.
> >
>
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> > > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> > > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> > > just need
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Luck, Tony wrote:
>> Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide
>> is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better,
>> and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the
>> Linux kernel, that demons
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
Depends on details of your definition of abuse.
> So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse.
> The Oxford dictionary gives me:
>
> "speak to (someone) in an
> Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide
> is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better,
> and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the
> Linux kernel, that demonstrates that suppressing swearing has a
> positive effect
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stefano Stabellini
wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini
>> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> >> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:41 -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> The big disadvantage is that it leaves out several hundred (or thousdand)
> people.
I see that as an advantage ;-)
We could video tape it for the entertainment value.
-- Steve
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> >> to get a wider range of developers.
> >
> > Can we stop bring
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:00:46PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > to get a wider range of developers.
>
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> What we need are mentors, and educate people that Linux really isn't
> that harsh, and that the new developers actually do have talent, and
> shouldn't be afraid to post their code.
Hey, this is exactly the goal that we seek at the
On 07/16/13 22:32, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:22:38PM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 21:48 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>
>>> Guys, I love my job. The kernel developer community is great. But I
>>> suspect that some of you don't necessarily think about the
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 18:00 +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > to get a wider range of developers.
>
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
>
> I
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini
wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
>> to get a wider range of developers.
>
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
Can you p
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> to get a wider range of developers.
Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
in ord
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> The point I'm making is that we need to find out what is preventing good
> developers from joining the Linux community. Is it really the harshness
> of the project, or is it because we expect you to have the best code,
> and you will
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
>
> No, we do
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:02 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Are you volunteering to be a mentor for the FOSS Outreach Program for
> Women? ;) I will happily take more mentors for the next round in
> November!
If you have someone interested in Real Time OS development. Sure!
-- Steve
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To unsubsc
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:36:36AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> > > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
On 13-07-16 07:38 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:12 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
[...]
>
>> We need to define what behavior we want
>> from both maintainers and patch submitters. E.g. "No regressions" and
>> "don't break userspace"
>
> Yes, those do need to be documente
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> > Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.
>
> Point taken.
>
> I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to
> modify it a bit
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.
Point taken.
I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to
modify it a bit as it wasn't meant to be public.
When I started sending patches to LKML it
Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.
On 17 July 2013 13:21, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:51 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> > I don't believe this is that much practiced on LKML. I know at least
> > one developer who does this, but he's probably the
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:51 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> I don't believe this is that much practiced on LKML. I know at least
> one developer who does this, but he's probably the exception. I more
> often see counter proposals just as if two authors were fighting to
> get their patch merged.
And
On 07/17/2013 06:58 PM, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 17:15 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>> On 07/17/2013 08:51 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>>>
Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
he
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 17:15 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> On 07/17/2013 08:51 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> >
> >> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> >> here because I would like to see what's the proper w
On 07/17/2013 08:51 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>
>> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
>> here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
>>
>> For instance, people A posted a patch set to
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:49:27PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> The etiquette on the lkml is by far the roughest of them all. It's the
> "bad neighborhood with guns" of the Open Source world. You never know
> when you are going to get a bullet, but sooner or later you'll get one.
Only Andrew
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 04:15:55PM -0700, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> "Your code breaks the build for every platform. Would you please kindly
> consider fixing it ?"
Something like this: https://lists.launchpad.net/ac100/msg01040.html
"small typo here."
Marc, was obviously dripping with sarcasm when
, "Ingo Molnar" , "Olivier
> Galibert" , "Linux Kernel
> Mailing List" , "stable"
> , "Linus Torvalds"
> , "Willy Tarreau"
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:53:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
> > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Can we please make this int
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:51:36PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>
> > Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> > here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
> >
> > For instance, people A
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:22:38PM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 21:48 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > Guys, I love my job. The kernel developer community is great. But I
> > suspect that some of you don't necessarily think about the other side.
> > I had slashdot discussing
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 21:48 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Guys, I love my job. The kernel developer community is great. But I
> suspect that some of you don't necessarily think about the other side.
> I had slashdot discussing my abusive relationship with my wife and
> kids thanks to Sarah's comm
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 20:02 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>
>> Umm. Notice how the "Joseph" I replied to had deleted all the comments he
>> wrote?
>
> Sorry, that completely escaped me.
>
>> That should tell you something. I smacked down a t
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 20:02 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> >
> > In fact, even in the pull request that's referenced here, Linus, you
> > were polite but firm in your first two responses. When you're perfectly
> > capable of doing that, why
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>
> In fact, even in the pull request that's referenced here, Linus, you
> were polite but firm in your first two responses. When you're perfectly
> capable of doing that, why spoil it by adding insults?
Umm. Notice how the "Joseph" I replied
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:50 -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:43:57PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
[...]
> > > Keep in mind that there are some cultures where even pointing out a
> > > technical flaw in code might considered bringing deep shame on the
> > > engineer and their co
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:50:08 -0400 Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> The other question where I think you and Linus differ is the belief
> whether polite messages of the form, "it's really rude to break the
> kernel ABI, I would rather prefer if you wouldn't do that" are as
> effective at establishing commu
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:51:36PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>
> > Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> > here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
> >
> > For instance, people A
On 07/16/2013 07:53 PM, Myklebust, Trond wrote:
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
Yes, that's true. Some kerne
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
>
> For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
> people B think that ther
On 07/17/2013 07:12 AM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
>>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "s
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:50 -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> Hopefully this helps to clarify the discussion. I'm trying rather
> purposely not take one side or another, but instead trying to
> articulate what I think I've been hearing people say (over, and over,
> and over again, on this very long m
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at modera
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:43:57PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> I don't think we disagree on this, Ted. I've stated that I view
> personal attacks and insults negatively, and I don't see an issue with
> pointing out that code is bad. I think you're agreeing with me on this.
Perhaps I misundrestoo
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> I'll admit that when I first started sending patches to LKML, I was
> terrified. Not because I was afraid of being scolded, but because I was
> afraid that what I sent wasn't good. It was a true judgment of my work.
> I was prettified. Sur
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:12 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
>
> Personal attacks are not cool Steve.
I never said it was. But no matter what we do, people *will* be
offended. Can't help that.
> Some people simply don't care if a
> verbal tirade
On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:12 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> baseline of "good" behavior is. We need to define what behavior we want
> from both maintainers and patch submitters. E.g. "No regressions" and
> "don't break userspace
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> > Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> > comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others
> > simply don't give a shit
On 07/16/13 15:43, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others
> simply don't give a shit. So we need to figure out how to meet
> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others
> simply don't give a shit. So we need to figure out how to meet
> somewhere in the middle, in orde
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 05:27:04PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:12:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > "Your code is crap" is considered unprofessional, while
> > > "Let's leverage my fifth grade nephew's capabilities to assist you in
> > > fixing the code" is perfectly p
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:27:09 +0400 James Bottomley
wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > >
> > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
> > > we would solve anything, but i
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