On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> > > [...] Hardware problems require a debugger or logic analyzer to fix.
> > > [...]
> >
> > 'kernel problems need a kernel debugger to fix'. How wrong.
>
> It says "hardware problems" not "kernel problems". read it again.
translation of my sentenc
Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
> > [...] Hardware problems require a debugger or logic analyzer to fix.
> > [...]
>
> 'kernel problems need a kernel debugger to fix'. How wrong.
It says "hardware problems" not "kernel problems". read it again.
:-)
Jeff
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> [...] Hardware problems require a debugger or logic analyzer to fix.
> [...]
'kernel problems need a kernel debugger to fix'. How wrong.
Ingo
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Timur Tabi wrote:
> Well, if it really is just his hobby, then he shouldn't be chanting
> the "World Domination" mantra.
Why not? World Domination is my hobby too :-)
-- Jamie
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** Reply to message from "J. Dow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Thu, 7 Sep 2000
02:50:37 -0700
> Aw, Tigran, give the kid his hobby, OK? We can try to bang some
> sense into his head and suggest ways his hobby could offer more
> satisfaction from good results achieved and make it more fun for
> the res
Tigran Aivazian writes:
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, George Anzinger wrote:
> > I like this one better:
> >
> > "And I'm right. I'm always right, but in this case I'm just a bit more
> > right than I usually am." -- Linus Torvalds, Sunday Aug 27, 2000.
> >
>
> I like this one even better:
>
> "Littl
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Mike Jagdis wrote:
> > Q: Then why isn't kdb in the kernel?
> > A: Uh...
>
> More to the point, why don't the people that want a kernel
> debugger maintain kdb and simply drop in the patch when they
> need it? If Jeff releases his debugger will anyone care enough
> to maintai
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> I have no axe to grind, but I do have a different view. I'm the 1 in 30
> million men born with an extra Y chromosone (a double YY), so you are
> pertially right there. DOuble YY males have a different brain structure
> -- the lymbic system in my brai
"J. Dow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
[...]
> The point is that WITH a debugger you have to take that step as well.
> A person without the self discipline to do that is still a child and should
> not be in this business. The debugger gives you a better picture of what
> is actually happening. If th
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On 6 Sep 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Jeff V. Merkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I guarantee you that IT managers and CTOs do not share your enthusiasm for
> slow, correct coding when faced with their business being down, their
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Dan Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> > For things like driver debugging its the only way to work. Hardware simply does
> > not work like the manual says and no amount of Zen contemplation will ever
> > make you at one with a 3c905B ethernet card.
>
> Th
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, David Woodhouse wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > Which Linux companies are profitable? **NONE**.
That's a statement with balls, which I would really see with some
numbers..
Igmar
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Gregory Maxwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>If this is your primary argument for a kernel debugger, a 'crash dump tool
>with extra controls', then why not just cleanly implement a 'crash dump
>tool with extra controls'.
What about an enhanced printk tool that virtually inserts conditional
printk
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, George Anzinger wrote:
>
> > Chris Wedgwood wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:52:29PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > >
> > > [... words of wisdom removed for brevity ...]
> > >
> > > I'm a bastard, and proud of it!
> > >
> > >
Christer Weinigel wrote:
>
> [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
>
> >I'm really kind of surprised that companies like SuSE, VA and RedHat
> >haven't started talking about forking the kernel already. Those companies
> >are serving the administrators and managers whose needs you are openly
> >admitting th
> Q: Then why isn't kdb in the kernel?
> A: Uh...
More to the point, why don't the people that want a kernel
debugger maintain kdb and simply drop in the patch when they
need it? If Jeff releases his debugger will anyone care enough
to maintain it? Less talk, more action methinks :-).
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
>
> > > Ehh? And exactly _how_ would a debugger help it.
> > >
> > > Especially as Alan quoted an example of a driver bug that didn't get fixed
> > > for several months because the maintainer didn't have the hardware.
> > >
> > > Wha
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, George Anzinger wrote:
> Chris Wedgwood wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:52:29PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > [... words of wisdom removed for brevity ...]
> >
> > I'm a bastard, and proud of it!
> >
> > Linus
> >
> > Anyo
Chris Wedgwood wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 12:52:29PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> [... words of wisdom removed for brevity ...]
>
> I'm a bastard, and proud of it!
>
> Linus
>
> Anyone else think copyleft could make a shirt from this?
I like this
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> Which Linux companies are profitable? **NONE**. The only people
> making money are hardware vendors and it's a model like SUN's, where
> you get a free "machine driver" with every system you buy.
And nobody has explained to me why these are _bad_ things.
--
dwmw
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> scale in the end. We'll either see forking, see another OS like FreeBSD
> fill the void, or (worst case) Solaris.
Somehow I doubt that arguments from marketshare/field circus/etc. peppered
with threats of coprorat world turning to Solaris, etc. wi
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> Mike Galbraith wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Damien Miller wrote:
> >
> > > Tools like a KDB would make the kernel a lot more accessible to the
> > > time-poor.
> >
> > Kdb is available to all. I think it should be _integrated_ mostly
> > beca
On 2000-09-06T12:52:29,
Linus Torvalds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
I do agree with your assessment.
Except for a single point:
> And quite frankly, for most of the real problems (as opposed to the stupid
> bugs - of which there are many, as the latest crap with "truncate()" has
> shown us) a d
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > If you'd read what I wrote in it's entirety, you'd know that I'm very well
> > aware of this perspective.
>
> I read it. I just didn't agree with the level of importance I felt you
> were assigning to cor
> your email inundation by one. Er, why's the list setup without
> a reply-to the list?)
lists that add "reply-to: list" degenerate to chat rooms.
so this is social-engineering, just like the lack of builtin kernel debugger.
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
[...]
> It cuts the other way as well though. If it is prohibitively hard and
> difficult to get fixes out for bugs in the Linux kernel, then companies
> will tend to choose other operating systems to run their applications on.
So what? I have been running Linux from
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you'd read what I wrote in it's entirety, you'd know that I'm very well
> aware of this perspective.
I read it. I just didn't agree with the level of importance I felt you
were assigning to corporate use.
> I don't need to have the volumes of idi
> Or, to misquote Feynman (another cantankorous bastard, but proud of it):
>
> "Look at the problem. Think really hard. And write the correct code."
In a smallish voice I note that the debugger helps you look at the problem.
It is your X-Ray vision.
{o.o}
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Quoth Linus
> Apparently, if you follow the arguments, not having a kernel debugger
> leads to various maladies:
> - you crash when something goes wrong, and you fsck and it takes forever
>and you get frustrated.
> - people have given up on Linux kernel programming because it's too hard
>
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> Finally, who says that acceptance by 'IT managers and CTOs' is actually a
> measure of 'quality' that anyone here finds interesting or acceptable? The
> very fact that many 'IT managers and CTOs' find NT acceptable speaks
> volumes to counter the credib
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, David S. Miller wrote:
>Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>I guarantee you that IT managers and CTOs do not share your
>enthusiasm for slow, correct coding when faced with their business
>being down, their revenue
Try LKCD.
--Matt
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> If this is your primary argument for a kernel debugger, a 'crash dump tool
> with extra controls', then why not just cleanly implement a 'crash dump
> tool with extra controls'.
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On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
> I guarantee you that IT managers and CTOs do not share your enthusiasm for
> slow, correct coding when faced with their business being down, their
> revenue stream being interrupted and their stock options losing value.
[snip]
No company sho
Date:Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:46:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I guarantee you that IT managers and CTOs do not share your
enthusiasm for slow, correct coding when faced with their business
being down, their revenue stream being interrupted and their stock
options l
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you
write:
>I'm really kind of surprised that companies like SuSE, VA and RedHat
>haven't started talking about forking the kernel already. Those companies
>are serving the administrators and managers whose needs you are openly
>admitting that you are not concerned
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> > Ehh? And exactly _how_ would a debugger help it.
> >
> > Especially as Alan quoted an example of a driver bug that didn't get fixed
> > for several months because the maintainer didn't have the hardware.
> >
> > What would a debugger have done?
>
> Let
On 6 Sep 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Jeff V. Merkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> >> Apparently, if you follow the arguments, not having a kernel debugger
> >> leads to various maladies:
> >> - you crash when something goes wrong, an
Linus Torvalds writes:
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> > When was the last time you wrote a device driver for some warped piece of PCI
> > technology that didn't work like the book says and for which you can neither
> > get more info or pop over to the next cubicle and ask the hardware des
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> How do you tell a customer who is giving you money to "be careful" when
> their system crashes and the field service rep hasn't a clue as to
> what's wrong? I've been supporting computer customers for over 20
> years, and this is not an answer that wil
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> > >
> > > What would a debugger have done?
> >
> > Let the end user give me essential answers on what was happening at the failure
> > point. Think of it as a crash dump tool with extra controls
>
> Sure. I just don't see many end-u
September 06, 2000 12:52 PM
To: Tigran Aivazian
Cc: Daniel Phillips; Mike Galbraith; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Availability of kdb
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Tigran Aivazian wrote:
>
> very nice monologue, thanks. It would be great to know Linus' opinion. I
> mean, I knew Linus'
Marty Fouts wrote:
>
>
>
> While I think that Merkey has a skewed view and an axe to grind, I think
> that the level of optimism on the other side borders on the naïve.
>
>
They are not naive, just young, and the young don't know what they
cannot do yet, and this gives them the ability to a
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> >
> > What would a debugger have done?
>
> Let the end user give me essential answers on what was happening at the failure
> point. Think of it as a crash dump tool with extra controls
Sure. I just don't see many end-users single-stepping through interru
> Ehh? And exactly _how_ would a debugger help it.
>
> Especially as Alan quoted an example of a driver bug that didn't get fixed
> for several months because the maintainer didn't have the hardware.
>
> What would a debugger have done?
Let the end user give me essential answers on what was ha
borders on the naïve.
-Original Message-
From: Tigran Aivazian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:57 PM
To: Jeff V. Merkey
Cc: Linus Torvalds; Daniel Phillips; Mike Galbraith;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Availability of kdb
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey w
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> > >
> > > Think of rabbits. And think of how the wolf helps them in the end. Not
> > > by being nice, no. But the rabbits breed, and they are better for having
> > > to worry a bit.
> >
> > You know those huge, sharp teeth on
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> >
> > Think of rabbits. And think of how the wolf helps them in the end. Not
> > by being nice, no. But the rabbits breed, and they are better for having
> > to worry a bit.
>
> You know those huge, sharp teeth on the wolf? Want to make them longer
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Marco Colombo wrote:
>
> As you said, the are two kinds of reactions. I don't understand why you
> think that the presence of a debugger will *prevent* people from doing
> the Right Thing and "think about problems another way". Are debuggers so
> evil? Will a KDB option in t
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Dan Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> > For things like driver debugging its the only way to work. Hardware simply does
> > not work like the manual says and no amount of Zen contemplation will ever
> > make you at one with a 3c905B ethernet card.
>
>
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > And quite frankly, for most of the real problems (as opposed to the stupid
> > bugs - of which there are many, as the latest crap with "truncate()" has
> > shown us) a debugger doesn't much help. And the real problems ar
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> In many ways good crash dump tools and tracebacks (oopses do not count) are
> the valuable bit - remote gdb happens to be a passable crash dump tool
if you're lucky and can analyse the crash online, maybe. but offline
crash dump analysis is the only option
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Jeff V. Merkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> >> Apparently, if you follow the arguments, not having a kernel debugger
> >> leads to various maladies:
> >> - you crash when something goes wrong, and you fsck
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
[...]
> Oh. And sure, when things crash and you fsck and you didn't even get a
> clue about what went wrong, you get frustrated. Tough. There are two kinds
> of reactions to that: you start being careful, or you start whining about
> a kernel debugger.
>
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Horst von Brand wrote:
> Michael Peddemors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > > Because I'm a bastard, and proud of it!
> > >
> > > Linus
>
> > Any general thoughts on how to keep recruiting the next generation of
> > bastards?
>
> Clean design, clean code.
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Alan Cox wrote:
> For things like driver debugging its the only way to work. Hardware simply does
> not work like the manual says and no amount of Zen contemplation will ever
> make you at one with a 3c905B ethernet card.
This is probably the best argument for a kernel debug
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Jeff V. Merkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
>> Apparently, if you follow the arguments, not having a kernel debugger
>> leads to various maladies:
>> - you crash when something goes wrong, and you fsck and it takes forever
>>and you get f
Tigran Aivazian wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> > Then it may be that corporate America weeds out Linux over
>
> more likely is that corporate America weeds out commercial software as a
> model which was superseded by the free software. We (the creative anarchy
> communi
> Apparently, if you follow the arguments, not having a kernel debugger
> leads to various maladies:
> - you crash when something goes wrong, and you fsck and it takes forever
>and you get frustrated.
'It crashed.'
[Spend hour teaching and end user to patch kdb]
'It crashed, it says foo, but
Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> And quite frankly, for most of the real problems (as opposed to the stupid
> bugs - of which there are many, as the latest crap with "truncate()" has
> shown us) a debugger doesn't much help. And the real problems are what I
> worry about. The rest is just details. It wil
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> Then it may be that corporate America weeds out Linux over
more likely is that corporate America weeds out commercial software as a
model which was superseded by the free software. We (the creative anarchy
community led by Linus) are here to help that h
Michael Peddemors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
[...]
> > Because I'm a bastard, and proud of it!
> >
> > Linus
> Any general thoughts on how to keep recruiting the next generation of
> bastards?
Clean design, clean code. Modularization. Better (internal) documentation.
--
D
} because you have "sullied" yourself. But I'm not going to help you use
} one, and I wuld frankly prefer people not to use kernel debuggers that
} much. So I don't make it part of the standard distribution, and if the
} existing debuggers aren't very well known I won't shed a tear over it.
The
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Michael Peddemors wrote:
> Is there any sort of plan to help newbie kernel programmers to
> get to the point where the Linus's and Alan's of the world will
> take them under their wings?
On the risk of repeating myself:
http://kernelnewbies.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (ask maj
Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Apparently, if you follow the arguments, not having a kernel debugger
> leads to various maladies:
> - you crash when something goes wrong, and you fsck and it takes forever
>and you get frustrated.
> - people have given up on Linux kernel programming because it's
On Wed, 06 Sep 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> And quite frankly, I don't care. I don't think kernel development should
> be "easy". I do not condone single-stepping through code to find the bug.
> I do not think that extra visibility into the system is necessarily a good
> thing.
Okay, so you hav
Linus, I 100% agree with you but I _do_ use kdb because I don't know the
Linux kernel as well as I ought to. So, I admit it is a "weakness
thing" and not a "strong weapon thing".
Whenever I understand something without kdb it turns out to be
fundamentally correct. If I fix something _with_ kdb th
Also sprach Linus Torvalds:
[snipo]
} I do realize that others disagree. And I'm not your Mom. You can use a
} kernel debugger if you want to, and I won't give you the cold shoulder
} because you have "sullied" yourself. But I'm not going to help you use
} one, and I wuld frankly prefer people n
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Tigran Aivazian wrote:
>
> very nice monologue, thanks. It would be great to know Linus' opinion. I
> mean, I knew Linus' opinion of some years' ago but perhaps it changed? He
> is a living being and not some set of rules written in stone so perhaps
> current stability/highq
Daniel,
very nice monologue, thanks. It would be great to know Linus' opinion. I
mean, I knew Linus' opinion of some years' ago but perhaps it changed? He
is a living being and not some set of rules written in stone so perhaps
current stability/highquality of kdb suggests to Linus that it may be
e |
|and may not represent the views of my employer. |
|_|
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Phillips
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 11:12 AM
> To: Mike Galbraith; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Mike Galbraith wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Damien Miller wrote:
>
> > Tools like a KDB would make the kernel a lot more accessible to the
> > time-poor.
>
> Kdb is available to all. I think it should be _integrated_ mostly
> because of the (potential) improvement in bug report quality.
Wel
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