Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-26 Thread serge
(finally starting to make headway through this thread over a month late) Quoting Alan Cox ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > To reject an LSM for providing "bad" security, IMHO you should have to > > show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. > > Complaints that the LSM fails to

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-26 Thread serge
(finally starting to make headway through this thread over a month late) Quoting Alan Cox ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): To reject an LSM for providing bad security, IMHO you should have to show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. Complaints that the LSM fails to meet

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-05 Thread Serge E. Hallyn
Quoting Andrew Morgan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Peter Dolding wrote: > > On 11/1/07, Casey Schaufler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> --- Peter Dolding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Posix capabilities predate SELinux. SELinux is not interested in

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-05 Thread Serge E. Hallyn
Quoting Andrew Morgan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Peter Dolding wrote: On 11/1/07, Casey Schaufler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Peter Dolding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Posix capabilities predate SELinux. SELinux is not interested in Posix

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-04 Thread Andrew Morgan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Peter Dolding wrote: > On 11/1/07, Casey Schaufler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> --- Peter Dolding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Posix capabilities predate SELinux. SELinux is not interested in >> Posix capabilities. >> >>> But no IBM had to do it. >>

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface

2007-11-04 Thread Crispin Cowan
Tetsuo Handa wrote: > I think there are two other problems regarding LSM. > > (1) There is only one "struct security_ops" structure in the system. > > (2) There is only one "void *security" field in "struct task_struct". > > > Years ago, there was only one MAC implementation (i.e. SELinux) > in

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface

2007-11-04 Thread Crispin Cowan
Tetsuo Handa wrote: I think there are two other problems regarding LSM. (1) There is only one struct security_ops structure in the system. (2) There is only one void *security field in struct task_struct. Years ago, there was only one MAC implementation (i.e. SELinux) in the mainline

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-04 Thread Andrew Morgan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Peter Dolding wrote: On 11/1/07, Casey Schaufler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Peter Dolding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Posix capabilities predate SELinux. SELinux is not interested in Posix capabilities. But no IBM had to do it. Err, no. It was

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-03 Thread Peter Dolding
On 11/1/07, David Newall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jan Engelhardt wrote: > > On Nov 1 2007 12:51, Peter Dolding wrote: > > > >> This is above me doing code. No matter how many fixes I do to the > >> core that will not fix dysfunction in the LSM section. Strict > >> policies on fixing the

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-03 Thread Peter Dolding
On 11/1/07, David Newall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Nov 1 2007 12:51, Peter Dolding wrote: This is above me doing code. No matter how many fixes I do to the core that will not fix dysfunction in the LSM section. Strict policies on fixing the main security model

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-01 Thread David Newall
Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Nov 1 2007 12:51, Peter Dolding wrote: This is above me doing code. No matter how many fixes I do to the core that will not fix dysfunction in the LSM section. Strict policies on fixing the main security model will be required. If there is no one wanting to

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-01 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Nov 1 2007 12:51, Peter Dolding wrote: > >This is above me doing code. No matter how many fixes I do to the >core that will not fix dysfunction in the LSM section. Strict >policies on fixing the main security model will be required. If there is no one wanting to fix the existing code, then

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-01 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Nov 1 2007 12:51, Peter Dolding wrote: This is above me doing code. No matter how many fixes I do to the core that will not fix dysfunction in the LSM section. Strict policies on fixing the main security model will be required. If there is no one wanting to fix the existing code, then the

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-11-01 Thread David Newall
Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Nov 1 2007 12:51, Peter Dolding wrote: This is above me doing code. No matter how many fixes I do to the core that will not fix dysfunction in the LSM section. Strict policies on fixing the main security model will be required. If there is no one wanting to

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Peter Dolding
On 11/1/07, Casey Schaufler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Peter Dolding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Improvements to the single security framework are getting over looked. > > Please post proposed patches. > > > I would have personally though selinux would have done Posix file > >

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Peter Dolding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Improvements to the single security framework are getting over looked. Please post proposed patches. > I would have personally though selinux would have done Posix file > capabilities as a general service to all. Posix capabilities predate

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Peter Dolding
The Clear and Important thing is there is already a single security framework. The single security framework is the security that exists when no LSM is loaded. It turns out the more I look most of my model already exists just not being used effectively. There is a capabilities frame work at

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Toshiharu Harada
2007/10/31, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Peter Dolding wrote: > > Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security > > features where they should be. > > > Linus categorically rejected this idea, several times, very clearly. > > He did so because the security community

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/31/07, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Peter Dolding wrote: > > Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security > > features where they should be. > > > Linus categorically rejected this idea, several times, very clearly. > > He did so because the security

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/31/07, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Dolding wrote: Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security features where they should be. Linus categorically rejected this idea, several times, very clearly. He did so because the security community

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Toshiharu Harada
2007/10/31, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Peter Dolding wrote: Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security features where they should be. Linus categorically rejected this idea, several times, very clearly. He did so because the security community cannot agree

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Peter Dolding
The Clear and Important thing is there is already a single security framework. The single security framework is the security that exists when no LSM is loaded. It turns out the more I look most of my model already exists just not being used effectively. There is a capabilities frame work at

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Peter Dolding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Improvements to the single security framework are getting over looked. Please post proposed patches. I would have personally though selinux would have done Posix file capabilities as a general service to all. Posix capabilities predate SELinux.

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-31 Thread Peter Dolding
On 11/1/07, Casey Schaufler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Peter Dolding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Improvements to the single security framework are getting over looked. Please post proposed patches. I would have personally though selinux would have done Posix file capabilities as a

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Crispin Cowan
Peter Dolding wrote: > Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security > features where they should be. > Linus categorically rejected this idea, several times, very clearly. He did so because the security community cannot agree on a one-true-standard for what that OS

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread david
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: On 10/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: MultiAdmin loaded before Selinux breaks Selinux since Multi Admin rules are applied over using Selinux rules. This is just the way it is stacking

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Peter Dolding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security > features where they should be. Gawd. Sorry, but we lost that argument in 1986 and the situation hasn't changed a bit since. Most people just don't want what we're selling. Do

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: > > > MultiAdmin loaded before Selinux breaks Selinux since Multi Admin rules are > > applied over using Selinux rules. This is just the way it is stacking LSM's > > is Just not healthy you

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread david
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: MultiAdmin loaded before Selinux breaks Selinux since Multi Admin rules are applied over using Selinux rules. This is just the way it is stacking LSM's is Just not healthy you always risk on LSM breaking another. Part of the reason why I have

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Peter Dolding
Jan Engelhardt wrote: I disagree. Traditionally, Linux has given a process all capabilities when the UID changed to 0 (either by setuid(2) or executing a SUID binary). This has been relieved over the years, and right now with LSMs in the field, it is possible to 'deactivate' this special case

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 30 2007 12:14, Casey Schaufler wrote: > >while others including SELinux will go their own ways. So long >as LSMs are self contained and strictly restrictive the >mechanisms they use to modulate their behavior shouldn't be an >issue. If SELinux chooses to turn its MLS controls off between

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Jan Engelhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > (please do not drop Cc, or I would have lost this thread part if I had > not been on lkml. And sometimes I am not because of the volume. Thanks.) > > On Oct 30 2007 15:13, Peter Dolding wrote: > >On 10/30/07, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
(please do not drop Cc, or I would have lost this thread part if I had not been on lkml. And sometimes I am not because of the volume. Thanks.) On Oct 30 2007 15:13, Peter Dolding wrote: >On 10/30/07, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> * I have no clue what family to put MultiADM

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Bernd Petrovitsch
On Thu, 2007-10-25 at 09:04 -0700, Ray Lee wrote: > On 10/25/07, Bernd Petrovitsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Mit, 2007-10-24 at 17:35 -0700, Ray Lee wrote: > > [] > > > Key-based masterlocks are easily broken with freon, and their combo > > > locks are easily brute-forced in about ten

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 30 2007 01:50, Crispin Cowan wrote: >Jan Engelhardt wrote: >> Apparmor tutorial (beats any FAQ at first): >> ftp://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirror/FOSDEM/FOSDEM2006-apparmor.avi >> >Thanks for the high praise. Unfortunately that FTP site seems to not be >working. Some alternatives: [...]

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Toshiharu Harada
On 10/30/2007 5:40 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Oct 30 2007 12:23, Toshiharu Harada wrote: Instead of pushing TOMOYO Linux, I started developing comparison chart of security-enhance Linux implementations. The current version can be found in

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Crispin Cowan
Jan Engelhardt wrote: > Apparmor tutorial (beats any FAQ at first): > ftp://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirror/FOSDEM/FOSDEM2006-apparmor.avi > Thanks for the high praise. Unfortunately that FTP site seems to not be working. Some alternatives: * My personal copy of the above video

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 30 2007 12:23, Toshiharu Harada wrote: > > Instead of pushing TOMOYO Linux, I started developing > comparison chart of security-enhance Linux implementations. > The current version can be found in > > http://tomoyo.sourceforge.jp/wiki-e/?WhatIs#comparison Smack Security Model: autolabel,

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Crispin Cowan
Jan Engelhardt wrote: Apparmor tutorial (beats any FAQ at first): ftp://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirror/FOSDEM/FOSDEM2006-apparmor.avi Thanks for the high praise. Unfortunately that FTP site seems to not be working. Some alternatives: * My personal copy of the above video

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 30 2007 12:23, Toshiharu Harada wrote: Instead of pushing TOMOYO Linux, I started developing comparison chart of security-enhance Linux implementations. The current version can be found in http://tomoyo.sourceforge.jp/wiki-e/?WhatIs#comparison Smack Security Model: autolabel, as far

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Toshiharu Harada
On 10/30/2007 5:40 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Oct 30 2007 12:23, Toshiharu Harada wrote: Instead of pushing TOMOYO Linux, I started developing comparison chart of security-enhance Linux implementations. The current version can be found in

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 30 2007 01:50, Crispin Cowan wrote: Jan Engelhardt wrote: Apparmor tutorial (beats any FAQ at first): ftp://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirror/FOSDEM/FOSDEM2006-apparmor.avi Thanks for the high praise. Unfortunately that FTP site seems to not be working. Some alternatives: [...]

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Bernd Petrovitsch
On Thu, 2007-10-25 at 09:04 -0700, Ray Lee wrote: On 10/25/07, Bernd Petrovitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mit, 2007-10-24 at 17:35 -0700, Ray Lee wrote: [] Key-based masterlocks are easily broken with freon, and their combo locks are easily brute-forced in about ten minutes. Yet,

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
(please do not drop Cc, or I would have lost this thread part if I had not been on lkml. And sometimes I am not because of the volume. Thanks.) On Oct 30 2007 15:13, Peter Dolding wrote: On 10/30/07, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * I have no clue what family to put MultiADM or

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Jan Engelhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (please do not drop Cc, or I would have lost this thread part if I had not been on lkml. And sometimes I am not because of the volume. Thanks.) On Oct 30 2007 15:13, Peter Dolding wrote: On 10/30/07, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 30 2007 12:14, Casey Schaufler wrote: while others including SELinux will go their own ways. So long as LSMs are self contained and strictly restrictive the mechanisms they use to modulate their behavior shouldn't be an issue. If SELinux chooses to turn its MLS controls off between

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Peter Dolding
Jan Engelhardt wrote: I disagree. Traditionally, Linux has given a process all capabilities when the UID changed to 0 (either by setuid(2) or executing a SUID binary). This has been relieved over the years, and right now with LSMs in the field, it is possible to 'deactivate' this special case

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread david
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: MultiAdmin loaded before Selinux breaks Selinux since Multi Admin rules are applied over using Selinux rules. This is just the way it is stacking LSM's is Just not healthy you always risk on LSM breaking another. Part of the reason why I have

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: MultiAdmin loaded before Selinux breaks Selinux since Multi Admin rules are applied over using Selinux rules. This is just the way it is stacking LSM's is Just not healthy you always risk on

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Peter Dolding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security features where they should be. Gawd. Sorry, but we lost that argument in 1986 and the situation hasn't changed a bit since. Most people just don't want what we're selling. Do you

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread david
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: On 10/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter Dolding wrote: MultiAdmin loaded before Selinux breaks Selinux since Multi Admin rules are applied over using Selinux rules. This is just the way it is stacking LSM's

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-30 Thread Crispin Cowan
Peter Dolding wrote: Lets end the bitrot. Start having bits go into the main OS security features where they should be. Linus categorically rejected this idea, several times, very clearly. He did so because the security community cannot agree on a one-true-standard for what that OS

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/30/07, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ah! So the proposal really is to have an LSM maintainer for each > "family" of models, acting as a resource and arbiter for modules in a class. I see it a little bit different one LSM maintainer for the lot of modules who kicks the ass's of

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Toshiharu Harada
On 10/25/2007 9:41 AM, Chris Wright wrote: * Linus Torvalds ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Do other people want to stand up and be "LSM maintainers" in the sense that they also end up being informed members who can also stand up for new modules and help merge them, rather than just push the

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Toshiharu Harada
On 10/25/2007 10:42 AM, Casey Schaufler wrote: I agree that security code does need to provide security. What we need to get away from is the automatic attacks that are based on 20th century computer system assumptions. Things like "name based access control is rediculous", and "a module can't

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Rob Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > * The proposal only allows a single implementation of each formal > > model. In theory, theory is just like practice, but in practice it > > is not. SMACK and SELinux follow substantially similar formal > > models (not exactly

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Crispin Cowan
Rob Meijer wrote: > On Mon, October 29, 2007 11:24, Crispin Cowan wrote: > >>> Thus IMHO it may be a good idea to instead of a maintainer for LSM >>> modules as proposed, alternatively a maintainer for each formal model >>> may be more appropriate. This also would require module builders to >>>

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Rob Meijer
On Mon, October 29, 2007 11:24, Crispin Cowan wrote: >> Thus IMHO it may be a good idea to instead of a maintainer for LSM >> modules as proposed, alternatively a maintainer for each formal model >> may be more appropriate. This also would require module builders to >> first >> think about what

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/29/07, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I *really* dislike this idea. It seems to set up the situation that the > only acceptable modules are those that follow some "formal" model. Problems: > > * What qualifies as a formal model? This becomes an arbitrary litmus > test,

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Crispin Cowan
Rob Meijer wrote: > What may be even more relevant are those concepts that couldn't be done > in SELinux, and how proposals that come from the theory of alternative > access controll models (like object capability modeling) are dismissed > by the aparently largely MLS/MAC oriented people on the

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Rob Meijer
On Thu, October 25, 2007 02:42, Casey Schaufler wrote: > > I agree that security code does need to provide security. What we > need to get away from is the automatic attacks that are based on 20th > century computer system assumptions. Things like "name based access > control is rediculous", and

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Rob Meijer
On Thu, October 25, 2007 02:42, Casey Schaufler wrote: I agree that security code does need to provide security. What we need to get away from is the automatic attacks that are based on 20th century computer system assumptions. Things like name based access control is rediculous, and a module

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Crispin Cowan
Rob Meijer wrote: What may be even more relevant are those concepts that couldn't be done in SELinux, and how proposals that come from the theory of alternative access controll models (like object capability modeling) are dismissed by the aparently largely MLS/MAC oriented people on the list.

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/29/07, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I *really* dislike this idea. It seems to set up the situation that the only acceptable modules are those that follow some formal model. Problems: * What qualifies as a formal model? This becomes an arbitrary litmus test, depending

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Rob Meijer
On Mon, October 29, 2007 11:24, Crispin Cowan wrote: Thus IMHO it may be a good idea to instead of a maintainer for LSM modules as proposed, alternatively a maintainer for each formal model may be more appropriate. This also would require module builders to first think about what formal

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Casey Schaufler
--- Rob Meijer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * The proposal only allows a single implementation of each formal model. In theory, theory is just like practice, but in practice it is not. SMACK and SELinux follow substantially similar formal models (not exactly the same)

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Crispin Cowan
Rob Meijer wrote: On Mon, October 29, 2007 11:24, Crispin Cowan wrote: Thus IMHO it may be a good idea to instead of a maintainer for LSM modules as proposed, alternatively a maintainer for each formal model may be more appropriate. This also would require module builders to first think

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Toshiharu Harada
On 10/25/2007 10:42 AM, Casey Schaufler wrote: I agree that security code does need to provide security. What we need to get away from is the automatic attacks that are based on 20th century computer system assumptions. Things like name based access control is rediculous, and a module can't be

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Toshiharu Harada
On 10/25/2007 9:41 AM, Chris Wright wrote: * Linus Torvalds ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Do other people want to stand up and be LSM maintainers in the sense that they also end up being informed members who can also stand up for new modules and help merge them, rather than just push the existing

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-29 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/30/07, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah! So the proposal really is to have an LSM maintainer for each family of models, acting as a resource and arbiter for modules in a class. I see it a little bit different one LSM maintainer for the lot of modules who kicks the ass's of thoses

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Arjan van de Ven
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:08:56 -0700 Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To reject an LSM for providing "bad" security, IMHO you should have to > show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. > Complaints that the LSM fails to meet some goal outside of its stated >

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/29/07, Crispin Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To reject an LSM for providing "bad" security, IMHO you should have to > show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. > Complaints that the LSM fails to meet some goal outside of its stated > purpose is irrelevant.

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Alan Cox
> To reject an LSM for providing "bad" security, IMHO you should have to > show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. > Complaints that the LSM fails to meet some goal outside of its stated > purpose is irrelevant. Conjecture that it probably can be violated > because of

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Crispin Cowan
Alan Cox wrote: >> The idea that poor security is worse than no security is fallacious, >> and not backed up by common experience. >> > There is a ton of evidence both in computing and outside of it which > shows that poor security can be very much worse than no security at all. > In

RE: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Hua Zhong
r; Adrian Bunk; Simon Arlott; > linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > Jan Engelhardt; Linus Torvalds; Andreas Gruenbacher; Thomas Fricaccia; > Jeremy Fitzhardinge; James Morris; Crispin Cowan; Giacomo Catenazzi > Subject: Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM c

RE: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Hua Zhong
er.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > Jan Engelhardt; Linus Torvalds; Andreas Gruenbacher; Thomas Fricaccia; > Jeremy Fitzhardinge; James Morris; Crispin Cowan; Giacomo Catenazzi > Subject: Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to > static interface) > > Hi!

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Pavel Machek
Hi! > > > The idea that poor security is worse than no security is fallacious, > > > and not backed up by common experience. > > > > There is a ton of evidence both in computing and outside of it which > > shows that poor security can be very much worse than no security at all. > > (So, I take

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Pavel Machek
Hi! > but require unreasonable interface changes. As people who care > about security (y'all who are only from the LKML are excused) it > is our obligation to look beyond the preconceived notions of what > is and isn't secure. Security is subjective. It's how you feel > about it. Hmm. So lets

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Pavel Machek
Hi! but require unreasonable interface changes. As people who care about security (y'all who are only from the LKML are excused) it is our obligation to look beyond the preconceived notions of what is and isn't secure. Security is subjective. It's how you feel about it. sarcasmHmm. So lets

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Pavel Machek
Hi! The idea that poor security is worse than no security is fallacious, and not backed up by common experience. There is a ton of evidence both in computing and outside of it which shows that poor security can be very much worse than no security at all. (So, I take it that you

RE: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Hua Zhong
]; Jan Engelhardt; Linus Torvalds; Andreas Gruenbacher; Thomas Fricaccia; Jeremy Fitzhardinge; James Morris; Crispin Cowan; Giacomo Catenazzi Subject: Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface) Hi! The idea that poor security is worse than

RE: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Hua Zhong
Engelhardt; Linus Torvalds; Andreas Gruenbacher; Thomas Fricaccia; Jeremy Fitzhardinge; James Morris; Crispin Cowan; Giacomo Catenazzi Subject: Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface) Hi! The idea that poor security is worse than no security

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Crispin Cowan
Alan Cox wrote: The idea that poor security is worse than no security is fallacious, and not backed up by common experience. There is a ton of evidence both in computing and outside of it which shows that poor security can be very much worse than no security at all. In particular stuff

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Alan Cox
To reject an LSM for providing bad security, IMHO you should have to show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. Complaints that the LSM fails to meet some goal outside of its stated purpose is irrelevant. Conjecture that it probably can be violated because of

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Peter Dolding
On 10/29/07, Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To reject an LSM for providing bad security, IMHO you should have to show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. Complaints that the LSM fails to meet some goal outside of its stated purpose is irrelevant. Conjecture

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-28 Thread Arjan van de Ven
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:08:56 -0700 Crispin Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To reject an LSM for providing bad security, IMHO you should have to show how it is possible to subvert the self-stated goals of that LSM. Complaints that the LSM fails to meet some goal outside of its stated purpose is

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface

2007-10-27 Thread Tetsuo Handa
Hello. Simon Arlott wrote: > I currently have an LSM that only handles permissions for socket_bind > and socket_listen, I load it and then "capability" as secondary on > boot - but now I can't because the LSM framework is now just the LS > framework. I think there are two other problems

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface

2007-10-27 Thread Tetsuo Handa
Hello. Simon Arlott wrote: I currently have an LSM that only handles permissions for socket_bind and socket_listen, I load it and then capability as secondary on boot - but now I can't because the LSM framework is now just the LS framework. I think there are two other problems regarding LSM.

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Adrian Bunk
On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 11:46:39AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:56:47 -0700, Greg KH wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 01:09:14AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: > >> Am 25.10.2007 00:31 schrieb Adrian Bunk: > >> > Generally, the goal is to get external modules included into

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Simon Arlott
On 26/10/07 16:58, Greg KH wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 11:46:39AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:56:47 -0700, Greg KH wrote: >> > I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers >> > and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Greg KH
On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 09:09:05AM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote: > > On Oct 25 2007 19:56, Greg KH wrote: > > > >I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers > >and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help prevent > >these kinds of things. If you know of

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Greg KH
On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 11:46:39AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:56:47 -0700, Greg KH wrote: > > I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers > > and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help prevent > > these kinds of things. If

Re: LSM conversion to static interface

2007-10-26 Thread Samir Bellabes
Jan Engelhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Which reminded me of the TuxGuardian LSM[1] - another of the real-world > uses to meet Linus's criteria? ("had examples of their real-world use to > step forward and explain their use") > > In this specific project, LSM is used to collect up calls to

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Tilman Schmidt
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:56:47 -0700, Greg KH wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 01:09:14AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: >> Am 25.10.2007 00:31 schrieb Adrian Bunk: >> > Generally, the goal is to get external modules included into the kernel. >> > [...] even though it might sound harsh breaking >> >

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 25 2007 19:56, Greg KH wrote: > >I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers >and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help prevent >these kinds of things. If you know of any that are not on the list at: >

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Jan Engelhardt
On Oct 25 2007 19:56, Greg KH wrote: I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help prevent these kinds of things. If you know of any that are not on the list at:

Re: LSM conversion to static interface

2007-10-26 Thread Samir Bellabes
Jan Engelhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Which reminded me of the TuxGuardian LSM[1] - another of the real-world uses to meet Linus's criteria? (had examples of their real-world use to step forward and explain their use) In this specific project, LSM is used to collect up calls to bind()

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Tilman Schmidt
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:56:47 -0700, Greg KH wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 01:09:14AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: Am 25.10.2007 00:31 schrieb Adrian Bunk: Generally, the goal is to get external modules included into the kernel. [...] even though it might sound harsh breaking external

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Greg KH
On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 11:46:39AM +0200, Tilman Schmidt wrote: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:56:47 -0700, Greg KH wrote: I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help prevent these kinds of things. If you know

Re: Linux Security *Module* Framework (Was: LSM conversion to static interface)

2007-10-26 Thread Greg KH
On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 09:09:05AM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Oct 25 2007 19:56, Greg KH wrote: I'm trying to compile a list of all known external modules and drivers and work to get them included in the main kernel tree to help prevent these kinds of things. If you know of any that

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