On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 09:10, James Laver london...@jameslaver.com wrote:
I'm actually liking it more than CPAN for publishing and installing stuff.
The only weak area is lack of search.cpan.org.
Why is search.cpan.org code (still) not open source?
P
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 10:10:33AM +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote:
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 09:10, James Laver london...@jameslaver.com wrote:
I'm actually liking it more than CPAN for publishing and installing stuff.
The only weak area is lack of search.cpan.org.
Why is search.cpan.org code
Simon Wistow wrote:
On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 10:57:56AM -0400, Matt Sergeant said:
I'm actually liking it more than CPAN for publishing and installing stuff.
The only weak area is lack of search.cpan.org.
My problem with npm is that it either tries to install stuff in some
random
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 11:21, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote:
Of course, it's possible that the Comprehensive Python Archive Network
or similar for ruby/javascript/java/C/whatever does exist but I just
can't find it. But then, if I can't find it, it's not much use.
(If you were a
On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 12:07 +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote:
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 11:21, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote:
Of course, it's possible that the Comprehensive Python Archive Network
or similar for ruby/javascript/java/C/whatever does exist but I just
can't find it. But
On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, David Cantrell wrote:
It's the lack of a CPAN-a-like for any other language that keeps me
coming back to perl.
Of course, it's possible that the Comprehensive Python Archive Network
or similar for ruby/javascript/java/C/whatever does exist but I just
can't find it.
Hakim Cassimally wrote:
While Javascript-the-language is lovely (as you say, better in some
respects, worse in others, than Perl), that's only one part of the
story. I've not followed Javascript-the-platform that closely (i.e.
anything much beyond jQuery) - what's your experience been like,
David Cantrell wrote:
It's the lack of a CPAN-a-like for any other language that keeps me
coming back to perl.
Of course, it's possible that the Comprehensive Python Archive Network
or similar for ruby/javascript/java/C/whatever does exist but I just
can't find it. But then, if I can't find
Simon Cozens wrote:
On 02/06/2011 21:50, gvim wrote:
Considering the amount of development you've done on Perl web frameworks over
the years isn't this tantamount to having given up on Perl, at least for web
development?
Yes and no. I've moved from being more of a developer to
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 01:28:14PM +0100, Pedro Figueiredo wrote:
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:02, Nicholas Clark wrote:
The issues seem to be dependency management and code reuse.
How is Java solving these in ways that Perl is failing at?
It's not automating the (to some degree
On 21/04/2011 09:38, Simon Cozens wrote:
On 21/04/2011 09:26, Mark Overmeer wrote:
CPAN was never made to maintain software. It is made to distribute
software. When you upload something to it, there is no warning that
you will become responsible for its future.
And this, folks, is precisely
On 02/06/2011 21:50, gvim wrote:
Considering the amount of development you've done on Perl web frameworks over
the years isn't this tantamount to having given up on Perl, at least for web
development?
Yes and no. I've moved from being more of a developer to being more of a user.
Perl is a
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Pedro Figueiredo
m...@pedrofigueiredo.orgwrote:
If only it knew how to manage a Shipwright vessel...
So, I was gonna ask. Does Shipwright do most of what we like about Maven?
Would it be that hard to define a list of modules, a Perl version, and let
something
On Thursday, April 28, 2011, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.org wrote:
On 27/04/2011 17:19, Avleen Vig wrote:
That's right. If you want OO, you can always use a real programming
language.
Well, you're either using Smalltalk, or faking it.
Usually badly. Moose is faking CLOS though. Sort
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.orgwrote:
On 27/04/2011 17:19, Avleen Vig wrote:
That's right. If you want OO, you can always use a real programming
language.
Well, you're either using Smalltalk, or faking it.
LISP, or go home.
http://xkcd.com/224/
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:59:33AM +0100, Peter Edwards wrote:
I had problems installing deps on some antique POS server combined with
bureaucracy putting me off building my own perl.
And to be honest, why would I wade through bureaucratic permission-gaining
exercises when 30 lines of code
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:02, Nicholas Clark wrote:
Which makes me ask the same question. How is Java doing it right?
In my limited BBC experience, mvn just pulls freshest everything down
from the repo...
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:02, Nicholas Clark wrote:
The issues seem to be dependency management and code reuse.
How is Java solving these in ways that Perl is failing at?
It's not automating the (to some degree necessary) bureaucratic
permission-gaining exercises. So what is it doing
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:15, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:02, Nicholas Clark wrote:
Which makes me ask the same question. How is Java doing it right?
In my limited BBC experience, mvn just pulls freshest everything down
from the repo...
No, it pulls whatever you tell it
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:29, Pedro Figueiredo wrote:
In my limited BBC experience, mvn just pulls freshest everything down
from the repo...
No, it pulls whatever you tell it to pull.
This explains the gist of what Maven does.
On 27 Apr 2011, at 13:51, Andy Armstrong wrote:
http://www.sonatype.com/books/mvnref-book/reference/pom-relationships-sect-project-dependencies.html
As far as dependency management goes. It does so much more than that. I'd go
for the by example book for a quick overview, and then use the
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.orgwrote:
On 20/04/2011 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Or does he have a point?
He completely has a point. CPAN developers right now seem to have a strong
predilection for throwing the kitchen sink into modules that really
On 20/04/11 23:17, Peter Edwards wrote:
Imagine you're supporting a 3 year old code base that needs specific
versions of DBIx::Class, Catalyst, Moose and Class::MOP to make it run, and
when you do a upgrade via yum or apt-get or cpan random things break in your
regression tests and you don't
* Dirk Koopman (d...@tobit.co.uk) [110421 08:08]:
On 20/04/11 23:17, Peter Edwards wrote:
Imagine you're supporting a 3 year old code base that needs specific
versions of DBIx::Class, Catalyst, Moose and Class::MOP to make it run, and
when you do a upgrade via yum or apt-get or cpan random
On 21/04/2011 09:26, Mark Overmeer wrote:
CPAN was never made to maintain software. It is made to distribute
software. When you upload something to it, there is no warning that
you will become responsible for its future.
And this, folks, is precisely why I use Drupal these days.
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 23:06 -0400, Jesse Vincent wrote:
He's embarrassed that didn't think to run apt-get install
libnet-twitter-perl?
That doesn't work so well on a vanilla OS X box. Whcih is what his
workstation is.
That's not a perl fail but rather a fail on the part of those who
On 21/04/2011, at 7:08 PM, Jason Clifford wrote:
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 23:06 -0400, Jesse Vincent wrote:
He's embarrassed that didn't think to run apt-get install
libnet-twitter-perl?
That doesn't work so well on a vanilla OS X box. Whcih is what his
workstation is.
That's not a perl
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.org wrote:
On 21/04/2011 09:26, Mark Overmeer wrote:
CPAN was never made to maintain software. It is made to distribute
software. When you upload something to it, there is no warning that
you will become responsible for its
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:08:16AM +0100, Jason Clifford wrote:
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 23:06 -0400, Jesse Vincent wrote:
There is a toolchain bug. Perl's toolchain can't find XCode.
Is it really the responsibility of the perl toolchain to do that?
Yes.
FWIW, it has managed to find XCode just
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:26:45AM +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
As demonstration of cpan6, I have created a full backpan archive, where
you can get the 02packages of any day in history. So you can then say
install DBIx::Simple with the knowledge of 2001-02-12 as yum
Large parts of the code is
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 10:26 +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
As demonstration of cpan6, I have created a full backpan archive, where
you can get the 02packages of any day in history. So you can then say
install DBIx::Simple with the knowledge of 2001-02-12 as yum
That sounds really useful!
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:33:52PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:08:16AM +0100, Jason Clifford wrote:
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 23:06 -0400, Jesse Vincent wrote:
There is a toolchain bug. Perl's toolchain can't find XCode.
Is it really the responsibility of the
On 21 Apr 2011, at 12:37, Denny wrote:
On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 10:26 +0200, Mark Overmeer wrote:
As demonstration of cpan6, I have created a full backpan archive, where
you can get the 02packages of any day in history. So you can then say
install DBIx::Simple with the knowledge of 2001-02-12
* Dave Hodgkinson (daveh...@gmail.com) [110421 12:13]:
install DBIx::Simple with the knowledge of 2001-02-12 as yum
Isn't CPAN on Time Machine?
No.
But we have backpan, where all the modules ever uploaded are kept.
The main problem is that the administration 02packages (etc) files which
are
On 21 Apr 2011, at 12:52, Jesse Vincent wrote:
Jamie swears that it's a vanilla vendor Perl on a new 10.6.7 box with
XCode 4. Someone spotted it trying to use the _ppc_ compiler at some
point during the build. I don't currently have suitable test hardware
to try to repro it on. :/
Could it
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson daveh...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
Key is
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/#comment-90218
P
On 20 April 2011 10:03, Paul Makepeace pa...@paulm.com wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson daveh...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
Key is
On 20/04/2011 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Or does he have a point?
He completely has a point. CPAN developers right now seem to have a strong
predilection for throwing the kitchen sink into modules that really don't need
it. (You want to parse dates, you use DateTime. Um, no, not necessarily.)
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He has a point.
--
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.orgwrote:
On 20/04/2011 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Or does he have a point?
He completely has a point. CPAN developers right now seem to have a strong
predilection for throwing the kitchen sink into modules that really
On 20 Apr 2011, at 11:05, Simon Cozens wrote:
I agree with him that doesn't seem to be a culture of simplicity.
Yup - completely agree. This is one of the reasons I like the ::Tiny namespace
so much.
And the transient dependency explosion - and subsequent burden of updating
those dependencies
On 20/04/2011 11:42, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:
The alternative to having one big, but mostly universal module (like
DateTime) is to have many small specialized modules.
No, the alternative is to have the option of either using one big universal
module *or* many small specialized modules. A
On 20 April 2011 11:13, Jesse Vincent je...@fsck.com wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He has a point.
Gosh that's timely: my talk last week at
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:42:12PM +0200, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.orgwrote:
On 20/04/2011 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Or does he have a point?
He completely has a point. CPAN developers right now seem to have a strong
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 11:48 +0100, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Yup - completely agree. This is one of the reasons I like the ::Tiny
namespace so much.
And the transient dependency explosion - and subsequent burden of updating
those dependencies - i.e. the TCO of a Perl app - is the main reason
On 20 April 2011 11:59, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote:
Go ahead and write CPAN modules requiring perl 5.12 and up to date Moose
then watch organisations throw Perl out the window and replace it with Java.
Like I'm seeing right now because they end up stuck requiring particular
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:06:27PM +0100, Bill Crawford wrote:
On 20 April 2011 11:59, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote:
Go ahead and write CPAN modules requiring perl 5.12 and up to date Moose
then watch organisations throw Perl out the window and replace it with Java.
Like
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 01:01:10PM +0200, Abigail wrote:
I think his point is: when doing something trivial, don't have a huge
dependency chain.
And it's to highlight this that I wrote CPANdeps!
--
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig
There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear
On 20 April 2011 11:42, Zbigniew Lukasiak zzb...@gmail.com wrote:
I generally agree that bloat happens and perhaps we should think a bit more
about that - but I don't think there are any simple solutions.
The alternative to having one big, but mostly universal module (like
DateTime) is to
On 20 April 2011 12:12, Abigail abig...@abigail.be wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:06:27PM +0100, Bill Crawford wrote:
It is frustrating to try to get a recent version of anything at all
onto a server that's destined to sit in a data centre for five years,
and needs to have a relatively
On 20 Apr 2011, at 12:05, Jason Clifford wrote:
So how are you handling the requirement to maintain the code doing what
those many modules do?
If you are not using a modular approach does that have any impact upon
the TCO of maintaining the systems you are deploying?
Short answer: we're
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Andy Armstrong a...@hexten.net wrote:
On 20 Apr 2011, at 12:05, Jason Clifford wrote:
So how are you handling the requirement to maintain the code doing what
those many modules do?
If you are not using a modular approach does that have any impact upon
the
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:22, Bill Crawford billcrawford1...@gmail.com wrote:
If (as recently happened) you discover a dependency chain that leads
to CPAN complaining that you need a newer perl because it's a core
module ... it gets extra annoying.
+1
cpan[1] install Term::ReadLine
The most
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:21:02PM +0100, Dominic Thoreau wrote:
i did see the counterpoint to this a while back when putting in a
module to CPAN for $past_employer.
Not so much huge dependency chain as there's more than one way to
do it being a problem.
This is why I don't like Catalyst.
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:22:20PM +0100, Bill Crawford wrote:
If (as recently happened) you discover a dependency chain that leads
to CPAN complaining that you need a newer perl because it's a core
module ... it gets extra annoying.
That particular bug was fixed a squillion years ago.
--
On 20/04/2011 11:59, Peter Edwards wrote:
Go ahead and write CPAN modules requiring perl 5.12 and up to date Moose
then watch organisations throw Perl out the window and replace it with Java.
Given that a lot of the push behind the Modern Perl cult is to make Perl more
Serious and Enterprise, I
On 20 April 2011 14:18, Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.org wrote:
On 20/04/2011 11:59, Peter Edwards wrote:
Go ahead and write CPAN modules requiring perl 5.12 and up to date Moose
then watch organisations throw Perl out the window and replace it with Java.
Is there anything better in Java?
On Wed, 2011-04-20 at 12:27 +0100, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Short answer: we're writing most of our new services in Java with a toolchain
that makes a lot of dependency management problems go away :)
Does that mean your java team will have to re-invent lots of wheels or
will they be using
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 15:40, Jason Clifford ja...@ukfsn.org wrote:
Does that mean your java team will have to re-invent lots of wheels or
will they be using established (and proven) code libraries?
They'll probably be using software that doesn't contain a load of
'0.x' releases
/snark
On 20/04/2011 13:29, Paul Makepeace wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:22, Bill Crawfordbillcrawford1...@gmail.com wrote:
If (as recently happened) you discover a dependency chain that leads
to CPAN complaining that you need a newer perl because it's a core
module ... it gets extra annoying.
On 04/20/2011 04:48 PM, Jacqui Caren-home wrote:
p.s. how about listing the depcount for a module.
That way we can tell what is truly lite and what is a can-o-worms.
You mean like cpandeps does?
http://deps.cpantesters.org/
Dave...
On 20 April 2011 17:48, Jacqui Caren-home jacqui.ca...@ntlworld.com wrote:
p.s. how about listing the depcount for a module.
That way we can tell what is truly lite and what is a can-o-worms.
something like this
http://deps.cpantesters.org/?module=DateTimeperl=latest ? Granted, it
would be
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Dave Hodgkinson daveh...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
No, code reuse is a *good* thing.
Yes, CPAN.pm sometimes fails.
Yes, TMTOWTDI means you have to make educated
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 06:43:48PM +0200, Lars Thegler wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Dave Hodgkinson daveh...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
No, code reuse is a *good* thing.
Sometimes.
On 20 Apr 2011, at 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He might or might not have a point. The truth is, as someone working in a Java
shop where the core business is writing games, as long as
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 18:01, Abigail abig...@abigail.be wrote:
But I've seen so much code that's needlessly convulated just so it can
just some code (or worse, that the code can be reused)
I think they came up with a term for this back in the '70s: Object
Oriented Programming.
Paul
PS
On 20 April 2011 18:45, Pedro Figueiredo m...@pedrofigueiredo.org wrote:
On 20 Apr 2011, at 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He might or might not have a point. The truth is, as someone
On 20 Apr 2011, at 19:08, Joel Bernstein wrote:
On 20 April 2011 18:45, Pedro Figueiredo m...@pedrofigueiredo.org wrote:
He might or might not have a point. The truth is, as someone working in a
Java shop where the core business is writing games, as long as this happens
whenever we need a
Abigail wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 06:43:48PM +0200, Lars Thegler wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Dave Hodgkinsondaveh...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
No, code reuse is a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 07:08:03PM +0100, Joel Bernstein wrote:
On 20 April 2011 18:45, Pedro Figueiredo m...@pedrofigueiredo.org wrote:
On 20 Apr 2011, at 09:40, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He's embarrassed that didn't think to run apt-get install libnet-twitter-perl?
On 20 April 2011 20:51, Abigail abig...@abigail.be wrote:
I've been trying to tell people for many, many years that this is a good
way to deliver applications, but Perl programmers seem to be stuck in the
60s; and the mere thought of having two copies of a text file takes too
much costly
On 20 April 2011 22:53, Walt Mankowski walt...@pobox.com wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He's embarrassed that didn't think to run apt-get
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 05:53:20PM -0400, Walt Mankowski wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:40:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/04/a-badge-for-the-software-industrys-failures/
Or does he have a point?
He's embarrassed that didn't think to run apt-get
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