Hi Scott,
We use a VGA splitter at Liholiho connecting a thin client with both
its monitor and a projector.
--Peter
On Friday, February 23, 2007, at 01:52 PM, Scott E Foulk wrote:
Aloha,
One of our teachers, Derek Esibill, is trying to get his
floppy drive to work on his LTSP
You guys are fantastic! Great job!
--Peter :-)
On Friday, February 2, 2007, at 12:04 AM, R. Scott Belford wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Quoting Peter Besenbruch [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I thought I would pass on this little snippet from today's paper:
Ewa Beach basks in free Wi-Fi
What did
On Monday, January 8, 2007, at 04:19 AM, R. Scott Belford wrote:
Michael Bishop wrote:
Vince Hoang wrote:
Since Michael offered to help, I am going to ask him to handle
the order and have HOSEF reimburse him. Let Scott know if you
need a donation receipt.
OK, so I'm ordering (4) Western
On Tuesday, December 19, 2006, at 12:51 PM, Michael Bishop wrote:
$169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs
$324.99 for 3Ware RAID
$1004.95 grand total
$807.95 - (4) IDE HDs
$197 more for SATA drives
Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250.
Would anyone else like to chip in? Any amount will
Hi Jimen,
I think my unclear style of writing muddied up the water. Let me
explain.
On Sunday, December 17, 2006, at 07:47 PM, Jimen Ching wrote:
Are you sure you're living in Hawaii? Level of bickering is
surprising? Are you not monitoring the Rail Transit debate? Are you
not monitoring
On Saturday, December 16, 2006, at 05:57 PM, Julian Yap wrote:
As of 2005, Hawaii has an estimated population of 1,275,194.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Hawaii
We're far too small to have this kind bickering and infighting. I
personally came to this island a bit over a year ago
On Sunday, October 22, 2006, at 09:14 AM, Tim Newsham wrote:
Would the system be safer if it was all on a CD and there was no hard
drive?
In a way. The system could still be attacked and used by attackers to
stage attacks against other machines, but without a way to save any
persistent
On Sunday, October 22, 2006, at 07:30 AM, Maddog wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 01:17 PM, Maddog wrote:
OS's are only as secure as the users that use them. I think that's
a repeat of what Tim said. Aside from the obscure OS's Jim reffered
too (not to say they are not in use,
On Friday, October 20, 2006, at 10:27 AM, HawaiiDakine.com wrote:
Nakashima wrote:
Would it be practical for the FOSS community to come up with a
stable, secure, grandpa/grandma computer system for users who just
want to do email and browse the web a bit?
--Peter
Aloha!
A FreeBSD
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 01:17 PM, Maddog wrote:
OS's are only as secure as the users that use them. I think that's a
repeat of what Tim said. Aside from the obscure OS's Jim reffered too
(not to say they are not in use, just not widespread), in the real
world where billions are
On Thursday, October 19, 2006, at 01:53 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Let's just say, it's not in the interest of anyone in the services
or even the services industry to have a really secure computing
platform.
Hi,
Non-technical poster here.
Does the FOSS community have an interest in it?
Would
On Tuesday, June 6, 2006, at 07:43 PM, Maddog wrote:
And it will change. I've been doing hotel WiFi in various guises
since 1998. Wayport had over 1,000 hotels when I left. It will
change in Hawaii slower than elsewhere because there is no business
requirement driving the hotels
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/16/78380_HNibmodf2_1.html
Since the DOE relies heavily on Lotus Notes, this might be a very good
thing.
--Peter
http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/
WishShareShow.asp?ID=1888328WishListTitle=liholiho
On Tuesday, February 7, 2006, at 05:13 PM, Michael Bishop wrote:
Use the 'email wish list' link on their site and email yourself the
right link. Don't forget to share it.
On Feb 7, 2006, at
http://www.shiptohawaii.com/index.php
I'm thinking about signing up.
--Peter
Read /opt/ltsp/templates/k12linux/reset-default-desktop again.
-Vince
Where are the login and logout scripts located?
One of those scripts would be a good place to reset the desktop in
these shared account situations.
--Peter
On Tuesday, September 21, 2004, at 11:06 PM, Ted Kanemori wrote:
This Thursday(09/23) from 4PM to 5pm, Scott Belford will be on channel
56,
TechTalk and will talking about Linux and HOSEF.
Will there be a rebroadcast? I missed it :-(
--Peter
Hi all,
I received the following inquiry from a colleague. Can anyone provide
some guidance?
--Peter
Linux on old Macs? I did a bit of reading last night and both LinuxPPC
and Yellow Dog Linux are known to support the 7200s. Basically, I just
would like to set up a decent webserver.
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Hawaii Linux Institute wrote:
This is what we should do: Build a massive Linux user community in
Hawaii. And hopefully some of us will become very big (so that the rest
of us can have enough crumbs to pick).
A few active HOSEF members are trying to do just that. I speak
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, R. Scott Belford wrote:
The bill that simply requests a study of OSS in our government and that
supports its future use has passed the Finance Committee. Thanks to
those of you who helped by testifying.
Hi all,
Liholiho Elementary is holding its annual volunteer appreciation tea on
Wednesday, April 14th, from 11:00 - 1:00. Would the following people
please contact me off list.
Thanks,
--Peter
Andy Stroble and Alex
Chit Leong
Karen Lofstrom
Michael Bumanglag
Ray Strode
Scott Belford
Thomas David
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Thomas Ryan Gordon Sr wrote:
Karen Lofstrom wrote:
| Can someone who participated in the HOSEF lab and lecture at the
| school conference tell us how it went?
It was pretty good for HOSEF to make it's presence known at eschool. We
didn't fill the session room like the
Sorry everyone,
Couldn't make it today.
As you speak to the Campbell tech people, can you ask for their
help/participation should we get chosen to present at the eschool
conference? We'll make a better impression if we can show success at
multiple locations and at multiple K-12 levels.
On
I got this off the K12OSN list. I guess it'll work with K12LTSP since it
came from their list.
Can anyone comment on this solution? or are Tom's solutions better?
--
How to get the NumLock to stay on
Written by gentgeen and verified by Loren (thanks ;-} )
contact at [EMAIL PROTECTED] (just
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
The Mandrake RPM unforutunately wont work for the thin clients without
some extra work. Please give me a while to search for this solution.
It would then need to be installed into the thin client nfs root-boot
chroot and not the main system.
Warren,
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
Actually, this question is perfect for K12OSN. They should have a
solution for you, and how to edit your LTSP nfs root scripts to make
it happen during boot. Please let us know the result.
If they don't have an answer within 3 days I will dig
Hi all,
Is there a way to default a keyboard to Num Lock on?
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Nakashima wrote:
Is there a way to default a keyboard to Num Lock on?
I should be more specific...
RH 9
K12LTSP
I found these, but...
http://www.start-linux.com/articles/article_139.php
http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-list/2003-August/msg00137.html
. Del on
startup or F2 or control F2 propritary
to the BIOS,some Dell and Intel boards require a jumper change to get
into setup.
Nakashima wrote:
Hi all,
Is there a way to default a keyboard to Num Lock on?
___
LUAU mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED
On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 03:27 AM,
Tom_Gordon/RISE/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
change -cf to -Pcf, this makes the paths absolute (leading slash not
removed).
Thanks Tom,
However, can you be more specific?
Are you saying to just replace all instances of -cf to -Pcf?
I'm confused about
My main concern is users asking me to get back a file or files they
deleted by mistake. For now, if I can take care of that, I'm good. I'll
work on off-site backup down the line.
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:33 PM, Vince Hoang wrote:
On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 09:41:08PM -1000, Nakashima
I think you're giving my brain too much credit. What is tarballing and
how does it relate to back ups?
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 10:49 PM,
Tom_Gordon/RISE/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What's so tough about tarballing?
It is common to find tarball/cpio scripts that archive modified files
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 11:45 AM, R.Scott Belford wrote:
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 10:43 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
nifty, but don't you think learning to tarball will be quicker and
more
useful to Peter?
It's all useful and anything learned is good. I really don't know
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 09:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
oh, tarballing is the process of taking files/directories and balling
them
up in one file (tar) and the compressing them (usually gzip)
http://lantech.geekvenue.net/chucktips/jason/chuck/994016279/index_html
Thanks for the
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 10:43 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
give him the old-reliable, tried and true methods like
http://www.faqs.org/docs/securing/chap29sec306.html see how much
simpler
that script is than the rsync script? Pretty much the same features.
Simple is my middle
On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 05:59 PM,
Michael_Bishop/FARRINCS/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Have you tried mapping it to the IP address? I find that WINS/DNS
resolution doesn't always work well.
Yes! It worked. Have to use the static IP address. The DHCP address
didn't work.
Thanks
On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 12:17 AM, Warren Togami wrote:
I suspect there are WINS configuration problems clashing on the
external
side.
If I use the static IP address for all Windows machines, do I still
need to enable WINS?
If you are going to use IP direct within the \\
On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 05:53 AM, Keith wrote:
Are the linux box and the win2k box in the same workgroup? If they
aren't, put them in the same workgroup if you can.
Yes, they are.
If they cannot be
put in the same workgroup then you should set up your samba box
properly
as a
Thanks Dwight! for the very detailed and helpful post below. However, I
couldn't get it to work. I must be doing something wrong. Sorry.
On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 09:20 AM, Dwight wrote:
Okay, let's take a look only at the variables that are set in your
smb.conf
file. My comments
Thanks Todd,
The static IP address does the trick.
On Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 07:53 PM, Todd Lee wrote:
If the windows box is external to the network, (I think you mentioned
this) how is it routed there? VPN? If so NetBIOS won't work. try
mapping to the IP instead.
net use x:
Next on my to-do list is backing up /home to our Macintosh server, if
that's possible. Here are some posts to K12OSN. Can you comment on them
or suggest the best solution for us.
--
That is the 'manual' way to do it. Mondo automates the whole process
very nicely.
With Mondo, the system does
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
To set up your samba box as a master browser, you need something like
# make this number artifically high
os level = 80
preferred master = True
domain master = True
service smb restart
Run this after you have made a samba config
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
I only want to make student /home 6770.
/etc/cron.daily/homeperms
Edit this file to change the permission that it sets every night.
Warren,
I looked at the file just now and this is what it looks like. Did someone
make the change already?
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
Also remember that the umask for netatalk needs to be set. I don't know
how to do this for the /home directories though...
Making all home directories 777 really makes me nervous. It might work
for a school like Liholiho, but otherwise it is a
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How are you going to manage all these links?
If, say, the students were in the same gid as the teacher you could
script it all to be automatic without the need for an outside database
or constant management outside adding/removing users.
Yes, I'd
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Vince Hoang wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 08:37:06AM -1000, Nakashima wrote:
I want to implement this new system of creating a Student
folder in every teacher's /home, and fill it with links to
their student's /home. That's why I want to make all student
/home 6770
Hi all,
I want a student's teacher to have rw access to that student's /home.
I change the student's /home to 6770.
The teacher can see the student's /home and can rw.
However, when the student saves an OO file to /home it gets saved as 600.
Isn't it supposed to get saved as 770?
As I'm new to
On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 04:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
If you aren't using Samba then the default file permission are taken
from
umask (env variable) subtracted from 777.
you can set umask in /etc/bashrc and it might be set somewhere on the
system also (~/bashrc)
look for
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
Peter is that Windows internal or external to the lab?
External
I suspect there are WINS configuration problems clashing on the external
side. Somebody that understand Windows networking will need to check out
the logs and see what the problem is.
Does anyone know of a kid-friendly program for music writing?
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Dwight wrote:
maybe you should post your samba configuration file (smb.conf).
Okay, here it is. I can't make heads or tail of it. I hope someone can.
#=== Global Settings
=
[global]
# workgroup = NT-Domain-Name or
Hi all,
I'm having trouble getting a Win 2000 desktop to map a network drive
(Linux share). I can do it in Win 98SE and Win NT. What's different in Win
2000?
--Peter
= yes, os level =
33 (or some higher number), and preferred master = yes. (Set all
that, then restart samba.) If you can see the box in the Network
Neighborhood browse list, this *probably* isn't a problem.
Good luck.
Michael
Nakashima [EMAIL PROTECTED]@videl.ics.hawaii.edu on 09/24/2003
05:12
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Hawaii Linux Institute wrote:
Barbara and I live in the same district, and both of us are Republicans
(with a capital R).
However, we must realize that the current White House is shamelessly
pro-Microsoft, and Barbara is from a district wherein almot everyone
owns some
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Dwight Victor wrote:
Actually, the original post mentioned that Rep Marumoto asked for
another meeting so she could include computer savvy people on her
staff. I took this to mean that she wanted to have another meeting
so that her tech-savvy staffers could participate.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Dwight Victor wrote:
This is exactly what I'm looking for. However, in my experience,
businesses are catious of Linux primarily because of support
issues...they don't believe they can find the kind of support that a
Dell or Cisco can provide (or Micro$oft). I'd still
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Warren Togami wrote:
The landfill reference was originally talking specifically about
preventing many old Pentiums from going to the landfill, not anything
grander. This might have been a confusing point.
The below is purely theoretical (not based on hard facts). I know
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Dwight wrote:
My wife is a teacher at Nanakuli High Intermediate School. They
don't have any budget for hardware or software (all of it is budgeted
for the No Child Left Behind Act). At one point they were planning
for a computer lab, but for whatever reason, it fell
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, R. Scott Belford wrote:
You need to come to one of our workshops. If you want to see some of
the hundreds of computers or monitors that we at HOSEF has saved from
the landfill and have waiting for your wife, please come on by. I
cannot say that ours or any computer
Yesterday, I met with rep Marumoto about how Linux could save the state
megabucks, enhance the local economy, and deal with the landfill
problem. She was very interested and asked for another meeting so she
could include computer savvy people on her staff. I mentioned that some
HOSEF people
Just my opinion...
From the public education perspective.
Currently, schools spend the lion's share of their budget on new
equipment from Dell, HP, Apple, etc., and on new and upgraded software
licenses. My limited experience with LTSP has taught me:
1. Schools can spend less on new hardware
Thanks Keith!
The script works perfectly now :^)
--
Peter Nakashima
Computer Teacher
Liholiho Elementary
--
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Keith wrote:
First, if /bin/bash is available, use it. It is much more powerful than
traditional Bourne shell. Even if /bin/sh is a symlink to /bin/bash
Nakashima
Computer Teacher
Liholiho Elementary
--
#!/bin/sh
# Set variable USERNAME
echo Type new username below in lowercase then press ENTER.
read USERNAME
# Set variable GROUPS
echo Type a comma separated list of groups with no spaces then press
ENTER.
read GROUPS
# create the user's primary
On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 04:44 PM,
Michael_Bishop/FARRINCS/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, but I'm getting no luck, I've googled the web to death as well as
K12OSN and LTSP.org. I was up till 11pm yesterday trying desperately to
figure it out. The module loads, sound plays on the
Hi Michael,
Are you following the LTSP sound thread on K12OSN?
On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 08:59 PM,
Michael_Bishop/FARRINCS/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What I need help with is:
- getting the sound working on the thin clients
- getting The Rosetta Stone working on the thin clients
Cool! I'll try to get a list to you by the end of Monday. I'm very
excited to see the new changes. Thanks for all your help Warren and
Ray. You guys constantly amaze me.
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 12:02 AM, Warren Togami wrote:
Several days last week I spent at Liholiho further preparing
Progress...
#2 and #3 solved. There was problem with the Apple Shared Library Manager
(ASLM) preference file. After I copied over a clean ASLM preference file
from one of my install CDs the ltsp server shows up in the Chooser! I am
now able to create one generic favorite for all 400 users.
Oops. Forgot to mention one thing related to #1. We can only see the LTSP
server from inside the LTSP network. We still cannot see the LTSP server
in the Chooser from outside the LTSP network. That's what Warren is
working on in #1. Once Warren solves #1... #2 and #3 will be solved
for Macs
Warren did discuss this option with me.
It's kind of a fall-back option.
I'm confident that Warren can get Netatalk working.
Thanks everyone for your help.
On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 01:50 AM, Virgil wrote:
Why not turn off multihomed? Is that needed to run LTSP?
Hey Warren,
Sorry for causing you stress by starting that discussion on Luau.
I'm still trying to work on ToDo item #3, but not making any progress.
The OS X situation is solved.
The OS 9 situation is something else.
I think the solution is the Network Browser.
It says it works with ldap, slp,
I just login as root and type reboot in the terminal right?
On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 09:49 PM, Warren Togami wrote:
Go ahead and try a clean reboot anyway tomorrow morning.
I'll be at Liholiho between 9am and 3pm.
Call me at 381-5966 if you want to stop by.
Liholiho is located in Kaimuki makai.
If you're coming from Ewa side take the 6th Ave cut-off.
Go makai on 6th.
Take a left on Maunaloa.
Take a left on 8th.
Park on 8th if you can.
If you're coming from
Any AppleScript gurus out there?
Would it be possible to write an AppleScript to launch the Chooser and
input the IP address, leaving the user with the username and password
input boxes?
On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Warren Togami wrote:
3. MacOS 9 and X: Simple shortcut to
Hi all,
Maybe the Apple's Network Browser would allow us to find our LTSP server
and login.
Know how easy it is browse through the files and folders on your hard
disk, or to select a printer on your network? With the Network Browser
feature in Mac OS 9, that's how easy it is to find Internet file
Hi all,
We're looking for a few sharp Mac people to give us a hand with the
first part of the ToDo list.
Anyone?
We basically want to find an easy way for our students to access their
Home directory via Mac OS 9 without having to manually type in the
server IP address.
We will eventually
Hi again,
After Warren left Liholiho, I moved our Mac file server off of the LTSP
network. It's probably coincidence, but now, I can't access the
Internet from any LTSP client. Anyone have any ideas or any advice as
to where to start? I'll be at school tomorrow between 9am-3pm if any of
you
progress with Linux and other OSS.
--
Peter Nakashima
Technology Coordinator
Liholiho Elementary School
.
On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 05:35 PM, Nakashima wrote:
Hi all,
I would like to voice a very hearty and public Thank you! to all the
wonderful volunteers who took time out of their busy lives to help
Liholiho Elementary install HOSEF's first Linux LTSP lab in a Hawaii
public elementary school
Hi all,
On Saturday, the 12th, HOSEF will be installing its first Linux LTSP
lab in a public elementary school. If you are interested in helping, or
just watching and learning, you are welcome to join us. We will begin
right after the HOSEF monthly meeting (approx 2pm). Come down anytime.
If you are thinking of dropping by, please email me (not required, but
appreciated).
On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 08:21 AM, Nakashima wrote:
Hi all,
On Saturday, the 12th, HOSEF will be installing its first Linux LTSP
lab in a public elementary school. If you are interested in helping
In my humble opinion, the more Tux-like the penguin is, the better.
A recognizable Tux silhouette butt-surfing would work for me.
--Peter
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Ted Kanemori wrote:
This note is for everyone else who's going to vote:
Does the penguin have to look exactly like Tux or are we
What room?
--Peter
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, R. Scott Belford wrote:
HOSEF Organizational Meeting at McKinley Community School for Adults
Saturday, June 14, 12:00 p.m.
McKinley is at 634 Pensacola
Michael,
What about a Notes/Domino database?
--Peter
On Sun, 8 Jun 2003 Michael_Bishop/FARRINCS/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Now that we have our website up, we are planning on looking into this. Its
been a while since I did online transactions. If anyone is familiar with
this process, I'd
What brand of switch does HOSEF recommend for LTSP implementation?
Is there a significant difference between brands?
~Peter
http://www.flex.com
--
Peter
On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Rick Chavez wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for an ISP. We'll be using modem. Cost
is the main consideration.
See below...
--
Peter
On Mon, 7 Apr 2003, Benjamin Kinsey wrote:
Ultimately, I think it would be wonderful for any school that wants
their own Linux cluster lab to have it. But, at this point we feel
this is a little premature for HNLC to push for this, and we at HNLC
are hesitant to set
Hi Ben,
Saw your post on luau.
Can you explain what HNLC is?
We have a few schools in our complex-area leaning towards installing Linux
labs like the one at Mid-Pac.
Maybe we can help you realize your vision.
--
Peter
This is very exciting and positive news!
ATRB and its head Vicky Kajioka would be instrumental in getting a
Linux/open source toe in the DOE door. I believe Vicky reports directly
to State Superintendent Hamamoto.
This is the BIGGEST fish (DOE department) that has so far expressed
interest in
Where would Linux missionaries do the most long-term good: K-12 education,
higher education, or the business world?
Where are they most prevalent now?
On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, R. Scott Belford wrote:
This is a rather rare opportunity to ask questions of one of the most
visionary minds in the open
Hi all,
Layman speaking.
I'm new to the whole open source thing. I need someone to draw me a big
map or point me to a website that does.
I have questions like: Is FreeBSD a flavor of Linux? or an entirely
different animal altogether?
Apple's Darwin is the open source version of Mac OS X right?
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Jeff Zidek wrote:
The issue is that we constantly here about a lack of funding for
computers from the DOE but when we offer donated computers and support
for very reasonable capital inputs their always seems to be someone to
point out how it can't be done, or make
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Gary Dunn wrote:
We don't get together on Monday mornings for staff meetings where a
suit dictates what the HOSEF position is. The differences in opinions
does lead to some squabbles, but then even doves argue about where to
perch. A group that appreciates different views
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, al plant wrote:
You are right on. Politics seems to be what drives the DOE. I listened
to an interview on PBS the other night with the woman who now is the
head of the DOE and got the distinct impression that she has to bow to
politicians not educators.
You are right (on
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, al plant wrote:
The Hawaii DOE is useless in any case. ( But the new Gov. is trying to
change it.) We should stick to the private schools like Mid PAC and
renegades in the State System like Mililani that appreciate the Open
Source movement and the help HOSEF can provide.
Superintendent.
His name escapes me, but a quick call to the State Superintendent's
office should get you his contact info.
--
Peter Nakashima
Computer Teacher
Liholiho Elementary
--
On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Tom Donahoe wrote:
Hi all
As one who lurks on this list, and is an avid supporter
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