[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-06 Thread Mathias Rösel
Dear Chris, there is no argument about that there was strumming in lute music. Neusidler and Judenkunig called it "mit Durchstreichen", i. e. with strumming. Even 17th century French lute music has it. Yet what Howard meant to conclude, if I got it right, was that as modern rhythm guitarists avoi

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-03 Thread chriswilke
Mathias, --- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > No such thing like rhythm lutes in medieval > ensemble music, > > > > How do you know? Have you been listening to those > non-existent > > recordings? You don't think any 14th-century > lutenist in a dance > > band ever st

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-03 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier
Gentlemen, I kindly advise you to read the following book : "Musiques savantes, musiques populaires : les symboliques du sonore en FRance , 1200 - 1750" by an excellent ethnolmusicologist Luc Charles-Dominique. It published by the CNRS Editions (available there : http://www.cnrseditions.fr/ouvr

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-03 Thread David Tayler
I think if we don't have any real historical evidence we are just retouching the color of the past. There are plenty of paintings showing lutes and shawms, trumpets, drums and so on. A motley crew. And what sounds louder close up does not necessarily carry, so room size becomes a factor, and so

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-02 Thread Mathias Rösel
"howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Maybe we're talking nonsense because we haven't defined our terms. > Or maybe you assume a clear dichotomy between blending and not > blending; the world is a more complicated place than that. I'm too simple a listener, probably. IMHO it's a dich

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-10-02 Thread Mathias Rösel
> > Which would explain why renaissance lutenists' propensity of playing > > near the rose, and the shift from 1600 onward to the bridge. > > Was there really a shift? I seem to recall instructions on where to > plant you little finger, rather than where to actually play the strings, > so perh

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-02 Thread howard posner
Maybe we're talking nonsense because we haven't defined our terms. Or maybe you assume a clear dichotomy between blending and not blending; the world is a more complicated place than that. Indeed, I think the whole notion of a single sound ideal for all of Europe for a century or more is i

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-02 Thread Mathias Rösel
"howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > The medieval hofkapelle at the Burgundian court consisted of single > > musicians who would do their best to get heard distinctly (the lute > > being played with quills therefore). That's split sound (spaltklang). > But there's no evidence of such a

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound

2008-10-02 Thread howard posner
On Oct 2, 2008, at 9:10 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: > Lemme try to clarify this. Split sound is when the sounds of different > ensemble members do not blend, that's all. > I think we can all agree by > and large with the following: I don't think the conclusions follow from the premises at all; in

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-10-02 Thread Bruno Correia
Thanks Mathias, This subject is very interesting and you explained it very well. 2008/10/2 "Mathias Roesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lemme try to clarify this. Split sound is when the sounds of different ensemble members do not blend, that's all. I think we can all agree b

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-10-02 Thread Mathias Rösel
t; > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:58 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound > > > >I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. > > > > > > d > > > > > > At 02:08 AM

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-10-02 Thread Mathias Rösel
And spit-clang is when you got too much oomph to it, no? M. "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. > > > d > > > At 02:08 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote: > >And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult > >

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-10-01 Thread thomas schall
ay, October 02, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. d At 02:08 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote: And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult chord P To get on

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-10-01 Thread David Tayler
I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. d At 02:08 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote: >And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult >chord > >P >2008/9/30 "Mathias Roesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >> So

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-30 Thread Peter Martin
And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult chord P 2008/9/30 "Mathias Roesel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > So, is "Spaltklang" the equivalent of other 20th > century ideas about older music, such as terraced > dyna

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-30 Thread Mathias Rösel
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > So, is "Spaltklang" the equivalent of other 20th > century ideas about older music, such as terraced > dynamics? Trying to strictly answer your question: No. The term is not an equivalent of ideas, not of other ideas, not of other 20th century ideas. Let alone

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-29 Thread chriswilke
Mathias, So, is "Spaltklang" the equivalent of other 20th century ideas about older music, such as terraced dynamics? Chris --- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > So if I understand correctly, the answer to my > question about who

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-29 Thread Roman Turovsky
Maria Gerasimenko-Golota, a friend of mine. RT - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute" Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound >BTW, what does "MGG"

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-29 Thread howard posner
On Sep 29, 2008, at 4:22 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: > Hope that helps so far, as for chapters and verses. So if I understand correctly, the answer to my question about who mentioned "Spaltklang" is that it was 20th-century German musicologists interpreting the intent of earlier musicians withou

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-29 Thread Mathias Rösel
"howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> might argue that there _was_ kinda ideal sound. On my way through the >> museum of musical instruments in Vienna, I learned that in the 16th >> century it was "Spaltklang". > The obvious question would be "who said that?" 1.) "Die Verwendung der Ins

[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound

2008-09-29 Thread Mathias Rösel
"howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> might argue that there _was_ kinda ideal sound. On my way through the >> museum of musical instruments in Vienna, I learned that in the 16th >> century it was "Spaltklang". > The obvious question would be "who said that?" 1.) "Die Verwendung der Ins