ined as "non-Roman" Christians. Some are fundamentalist
>and some are almost agnostic (many of the founding fathers considered
>themselves to be "Deists"). So with regard to the music, if a significant
>portion of the population accepts that song whose words aren
Indeed the story of Protestantism starts with Martin Luther and not with
Henry VIII.
In Switzerland first Zwingli was impressed by his thesis (he was a fine
musician and lutenist also, although he banned the organ from service).
Some years later Calvin, also in Switzerland (Geneve), continued his
rom: "Arthur Ness (boston)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LUTE NET" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
> <>
>
> Jon Murphy write:
>
> >>>>You are both right and wrong. It wasn'
ginal Message -
From: Caroline Usher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:15:56 -0400
To: Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
> At 11:41 PM 10/22/2003 +0300, Arto Wikla wrote:
>
> >Dear Caroline and all,
> >
> >on Wed, 22 Oc
<>
Jon Murphy write:
You are both right and wrong. It wasn't the lute per se that was
considered ungodly in the reformation, it was all music of the Catholic
liturgy.
There is little evidence of the use of lute in the Roman Rite. For
example, pictures of services seldom show a lute. But a
+0900
To: lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
> This the painting that has the broken string. The octave of the fouth
> is hanging down. You can barely see it in main picture. Too bad the
> close up shots don't show it. Any guesses
At 11:41 PM 10/22/2003 +0300, Arto Wikla wrote:
>Dear Caroline and all,
>
>on Wed, 22 Oct 2003, Caroline Usher wrote:
>
>> If it was contrapuntal music that was considered objectionable, then
>> what about all the contrapuntal music for organ or for choir? I seem to
>> remember a very prolific
May I thank the list for the excellent and informative responses to my
comments on the symbolism and artistry (compared and contrasted as intent)
of the paintings of Holbein's time. And to my comments on the loss of the
lute and other instruments in the Calvinist churches. It is late, and I have
a
Dear Caroline and all,
on Wed, 22 Oct 2003, Caroline Usher wrote:
> If it was contrapuntal music that was considered objectionable, then
> what about all the contrapuntal music for organ or for choir? I seem to
> remember a very prolific composer of contrapuntal church music named JS
> Bach.
At 05:23 PM 10/21/2003 +, you wrote:
>Sean:
>
>That sounds believable and probably closer to the truth than my explanation.
>That being said the issue still remains true, in some degree or another the
>demise of the Lute was in part to the increasing influence of the Protestant
>religions who v
> Deum" is it a coincidence? No, he's playing with ideas and symbols, some of
> them obvious (like the second) some completely inaudible (like the first).
> But when we discover these things, we can be sure they were done for a reason
> and that there may well be more features of the same kind whi
- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; lutesmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 22 October 2003 08:29
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
> Maps and globes, maybe he ran out of paint or ran out of steam. Broken
> strings, maybe
Vance,
> That being said the issue still remains true, in some degree or another
the
> demise of the Lute was in part to the increasing influence of the
Protestant
> religions who viewed the Lute as a vanity. That too is odd considering
the
> Martin Luther is said to have played the Lute though
Vance,
You are both right and wrong. It wasn't the lute per se that was considered
ungodly in the reformation, it was all music of the Catholic liturgy. The
strict Protestants (beyond Luther) found the music of the Catholic church to
be a lure to the arts and other "impure" things. It was at this
Dear Sean,
Thanks for the pictures! I have seen the Ambassadors many times in the flesh, before
and after the restoration, and it remains an inspirational painting for us lute nuts.
I thought the music had been identified - am I wrong?
The Berlin painting is really interesting, as I've only
Maps and globes, maybe he ran out of paint or ran out of steam. Broken
strings, maybe the player had a broken string when Holbein painted the lute
(did anyone say Holbein was a musician). It is probably apochryphal but
there is the claimed quote from Freud "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".
And
hi sean,
the globe is a "real globe" a painting-copy of
"The globe is close to one produced by Johannes Schöner at Nuremberg in
1523. The map includes a representation of the New World. It also shows the
line demarcating the division of the Spanish and Portuguese colonial
possessions that was estab
gt;- Original Message -
>From: "lutesmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
>
>
> >
> > Vance,
> >
> >
> > >It is my understanding that t
Paganinni was said
to have sold his soul to the devil.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: "lutesmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
>
> Vance,
>
>
> >It is my underst
considering the
Martin Luther is said to have played the Lute though nothing is said as to
how well or how often.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: "lutesmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Holb
Vance,
>It is my understanding that the Lute's music was at some point considered
>un-Godly and therefore forbidden in some circles, especially the extremely
>contrapuntal compositions.
So, the road to hell is not only paved w/ good intentions, the radio
stations are better too?
I'll be dang
Ed,
Alas, it isn't complete in my snippet--It's just a blow-up of the lute made
into a mousepad. I've seen the rest of this broken string on the web
somewhere though. It doesn't seem to curl at the ragged end as we're used
to seeing. Much more relaxed.
As for the symbolism, see the pages that
Dear Ed,
I think it's a vanitas symbol and can actually be seen
quite often, if you look close enough.
Regards,
Stephan
Am 22 Oct 2003 um 2:50 hat Ed Durbrow geschrieben:
> This the painting that has the broken string. The octave of the fouth
> is hanging down. You can barely see it in main p
D]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Holbein, addendum
> This the painting that has the broken string. The octave of the fouth
> is hanging down. You can barely see it in main picture. Too bad the
> close up s
This the painting that has the broken string. The octave of the fouth
is hanging down. You can barely see it in main picture. Too bad the
close up shots don't show it. Any guesses as to what the symbolism of
that is?
Caroline,
You're right, of course. One might still wonder what the delineation is,
though. Note that most "civilized" countries are colored in. But Ireland,
Sweden, Norway and Sicily are not. And would that be Iceland on the red
Arctic Circle? It is colored in.
This is only a broad guess so p
At 07:49 AM 10/20/2003 -0700, lutesmith wrote:
>Stewart,
>
>I think there's enough detail in the globe to the left of the lute to see
>that a number of countries are "color coded". I think it may even have been
>related to religion.
Can't be religion, all of Europe from England through Russia
is held through the up
scale and the second through the down. Have to look at this.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, Oct
ssage -
>From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:14 AM
>Subject: Holbein, addendum
>
>
> > Forgot to point out that the printed mu
rendition of a
subject may not be accurate.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: Holbein, addendum
> Forg
there is a homepage dedicated to the ambassadors, for the music see:
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/ARTH214/Amb_LuthHymnbook.html#anc
hor2759066
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/ARTH214/Ambassadors_Home.html
greeting from old europe
wolfgang w.
Dr. W
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Holbein, addendum
> Forgot to point out that the printed music is in an approximation
of the
> modern clef rather than the tabulature. The fret based tabulature
of the
> lute music
Forgot to point out that the printed music is in an approximation of the
modern clef rather than the tabulature. The fret based tabulature of the
lute music we read is a guide to performance rather than music as such. It
can only be played on a lute, or with a knowledge of the lute so that one
can
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