Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

orinocotribune.comPresident Maduro: Imperialism Co-Opted the Communist Party to Use it Against the Revolution January 17, 2024 The president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, recalled that while the people suffered from the “economic genocide” imposed on the countr

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Charlie: FWIW - I had the same sense and feeling. Why has there not been a full disclosure? I also here take the opportunity to agree to Avrams's remark at: #31385 Avram Rips ( https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/31385 ) #31385 ( https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/31385 ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Well when 1/3 of the population leaves the country yes sanctions helped to degrade the economy but also incompetence of Maduro and company and failure to diversify the economy . Also thug repression by the Government. The opposition is extreme right and wants to completely open the spigot of the ec

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

https://venezuelanalysis.com/video/venezuelas-post-election-scene-on-the-ground-reports/ Interview with Cira Pascual Marquina and Ricardo Vaz. Pascual Marquina makes the point that US sanctions undermine democracy in Venezuela. Voters faced the threat that if they voted for Maduro sanctions wo

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Is it not possible to campaign against the U.S. sanctions on Venezuela and at the same time simply recognize that Maduro has so far not met the most elementary requirement on election reporting? Compare: A. Communist Party of Venezuela ( https://www.idcommunism.com/2024/07/statement-of-the-com

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

John Reimann says: "There is a reason why the opposition continually talks about electoral fraud or repression in Venezuela. The reason is that Maduro cannot get elected so he has to indulge in it. And the reason for that is the disastrous situation in Venezuela." But many Venezuelans blame t

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

> On Jul 30, 2024, at 2:13 AM, hari kumar via groups.io > wrote: > > the Marxist-Leninist conception of the necessity of two stages in the > revolutionary process in colonial-type countries At the risk of ignoring David's wise advice, I'd like to say something about "stages" which has pers

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Not a problem Marv...but that is between you two (and me, I'd like to think) but when others chime in to defend their historical sensibilities, that is a resort to dogma, then it becomes a problem. Anyway...I agree about defense of regimes under attack by Imperialism. David -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Hi Hari, It won’t come as a surprise that I don’t share your understanding of Soviet history nor your view that the Cuban revolution replaced the old capitalist and landlord ruling class tied to US imperialism with a new nationalist and anti-imperialist bourgeois ruling class led by Castro and

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

I would argue that this is a deep hole to slide into when one gets into "two stage" revolution vs permanent revolution. My feeling is that we could have this discussion but it is fraught with polemical over-hype and mudslinging. As of now I'd suggest we avoid it. My opinion only. -=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Hi Hari, I'd like to see the slide presentation but it requires permission. Mike On 7/30/2024 5:02 AM, hari kumar via groups.io wrote: Hello Marv: Well, I am by now well used to being interrogated by you! But I know from what non-sectarian spirit it comes. Moreover I have learnt that if you pu

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

I don't know if Michael Roberts believes in the theory of permanent/uninterrupted revolution, but he waltzes up to the issue, but never deals with it directly. The other and related issue that he never deals with is that of land ownership, which is always central in underdeveloped countries. Here

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Marv - You also asked: "Your Compass comrades also said that, like the Trotskyists, “Castroism rejected the Marxist-Leninist conception of the necessity of two stages in the revolutionary process in colonial-type countries such as those in Latin America”, arguing that “the national bourgeoisies

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Hello Marv: Well, I am by now well used to being interrogated by you! But I know from what non-sectarian spirit it comes. Moreover I have learnt that if you put your foot where your mouth is, you should justify it... If you see my limb-twisting analogy. Regrettably I have not written up this mate

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

On April 16, 1961, Cuba became a socialist country. Castro later announced this to the population. And what happened on that April 16? Exactly; it was the first day of the Bay of Pigs invasion... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Onl

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Hi Hari, Hope this isn’t beginning to sound like an interrogation, but it is only because I very much respect you as a serious Marxist intellectual and activist that I want to probe your (IMO, idiosyncratic) political views further. I expect the subject is also of interest to others who have be

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Charlie: My apologies, I see upon further reflection that we are probably saying the same thing but in different words. But perhaps there is one thing more to add, that is that even if colonial/semi-colonial type countries,  the working class takes power - they *still* have the democratic task

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Hello Charlie: 1. Charlie: "More generally, though, this other statement from the thread is wrong: "bourgeois nationalists are ... a preliminary and necessary stage in the struggle for socialism outside the advanced capitalist core." (emphasis added)   Consider, for example, South Africa. The pe

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

GIC/status/1817813529316987251?t=CXwpigrgLlasWH-tPoHLhg&s=19>. From: marxmail@groups.io on behalf of Marv Gandall Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2024 9:39 AM To: marxmail@groups.io Subject: Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts Thanks for

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Thanks for the links, Michael.  Cuba's Diaz-Canel, Nicaragua's Ortega, and Bolivia's Arce  have congratulated Maduro on his announced victory.  Brazil's Lula, Colombia's Boric, and  the new Mexican president Sheinbaum have reportedly joined in calls for the government to release all ballot recor

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

> Via https://twitter.com/i/lists/108732238 , ,"A list of Venezuela sources > and reporters," and https://twitter.com/i/lists/865239659093180416 , > which is my own list of X accts. focused on Venezuela, 5:53 pm — Pro-Maduro government armed groups shoot at peaceful demonstrators in Urdaneta Av.,

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 01:56 PM, hari kumar wrote: > > -And in the presence of a MList party, or a strong workers movement that > is not 'fooled' by these bourgeois nationalists, they will inevitably > *renege* on carrying out the tasks, even of the nat bourge democratic rev. You got that right

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Good evening Marv. Basically you have rightly summarised my view. -Only left to emphasise that of course in the absence of the MList party, these bourge nationalists, so long as they follow an anti-big-country-imperialism - are still to be supported. ie. No invasion of Cuba/end sanctions on Cub

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Thanks for clarifying, Hari. If I seemed confused about your position, it’s because I’ve only always viewed it from the outside. I agree with you that a major benefit of this list is to get to know and better understand other perspectives, whether we ultimately come to agree with them or not, an

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Subject: Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts Merely an update - see: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/29/venezuela-election-nicolas-maduro-edmundo-gonzalez-urrutia-results and https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/28/world/americas/venezuela-election-results.html Cue

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Just my own view on Mark's comment and speaking strictly for myself. The reasons I originally joined the list, and why I remain here - include the fact that there are few places where committed M-ists of all stripes are willing to discuss. Thus far they have engaged. But playground tactics do not

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Merely an update - see: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/29/venezuela-election-nicolas-maduro-edmundo-gonzalez-urrutia-results and https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/28/world/americas/venezuela-election-results.html Cue forward to further USA sabotage and attacks. Harris (likely) or

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Good a.m. Marv: I am caught in a few sudden 'deadlines' - despite my having rejected any need for these upon formal retirement!  Hence, please allow me to defer much of an adequate reply until those are done. That especially includes the relationship of Lenin's 'Chinese Wall' (It was that that

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

> On Jul 28, 2024, at 11:14 AM, Charlie via groups.io > wrote: > > I’m happy to edit: But the PRC apologists and the obfuscators like Marv shove > it into the dark when the lamp turns to look at state-owned corporations in > China. Kindly edit. Half the list disagrees with the other half,

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

🥱Inviato da iPhoneIl giorno 28 lug 2024, alle ore 20:14, Charlie via groups.io ha scritto:  On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 10:47 AM Charlie via groups.io sbcglobal@groups.io> wrote: Roberts: "Chávez reasserted state control over the state oil company." That is, state ownership does not equal sta

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 10:47 AM Charlie via groups.io ( http://groups.io ) > wrote: > >> Roberts: "Chávez reasserted state control over the state oil company." >> That is, state ownership does not equal state control. It's a plain truth, >> isn't it? But the PRC apologists and the obfuscato

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

I On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 10:47 AM Charlie via groups.io wrote: > Roberts: "Chávez reasserted state control over the state oil company." > That is, state ownership does *not* equal state control. It's a plain > truth, isn't it? But the PRC apologists and the obfuscators like Marv shove > it into

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Roberts: "Chávez reasserted state control over the state oil company." That is, state ownership does not equal state control. It's a plain truth, isn't it? But the PRC apologists and the obfuscators like Marv shove it into the dark when the lamp turns to look at state-owned corporations in China

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Could you kindly elaborate further, Hari? I’m not clear on what lesson you draw from the Venezuelan experience. On the one hand, you endorse the Leninist concept that there is “no iron wall" between the national democratic and socialist stages of a victorious revolution, which I understand to b

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

A terribly sad situation. On this valid point of oil dependency (even if Michael exaggerates in claiming 'no investment in the people' etc): On 2024/07/27 21:25, Michael Roberts wrote: "Venezuela was not able either before or after Chavez to change this one-trick pony economy.  This was not the

Re: [marxmail] Venezuela: the end game?: Michael Roberts

Hello Anthony B & Marv: I think that the factual details amassed by Roberts are clear and certainly beyond any potential for my contestation. What I think is missing is the conceptual framework. The identity of Chavez in class terms is not clearly spelt out. At least in my opinion. When Roberts