On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Randy Bush wrote:
> actually, it would be really helpful to the masses uf us who are being
> liberal with our delete keys if someone would summarize the two threads,
> comcast p2p management and 204/4.
240/4 has been summarized before: Look for email with "MLC Note" in
subje
> It's a network
> operations thing... why should Comcast provide a fat pipe for
> the rest of the world to benefit from? Just my $.02.
Because their customers PAY them to provide that fat pipe?
--Michael Dillon
> So which ISPs have contributed towards more intelligent p2p
> content routing and distribution; stuff which'd play better
> with their networks?
> Or are you all busy being purely reactive?
>
> Surely one ISP out there has to have investigated ways that
> p2p could co-exist with their netwo
On 10/22/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It's a network
> > operations thing... why should Comcast provide a fat pipe for
> > the rest of the world to benefit from? Just my $.02.
>
> Because their customers PAY them to provide that fat pipe?
You are correct, customers pay
> > > It's a network
> > > operations thing... why should Comcast provide a fat pipe for the
> > > rest of the world to benefit from? Just my $.02.
> >
> > Because their customers PAY them to provide that fat pipe?
>
> You are correct, customers pay Comcast to provide a fat pipe
> for THEIR us
One of the things to remember is that many customers are simply looking
for Internet access, but couldn't tell a megabit from a mackerel.
That may have been true 5 years ago, it's not true today. People learn.
Here's an interesting issue. I recently learned that the local RR
affiliate has
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:31:09 -0700
Joel Jaeggli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
>
> > This result is unsurprising and not controversial. TCP achieves
> > fairness *among flows* because virtually all clients back off in
> > response to packet drops. BitTorrent, though,
H... me wonders how you know this for fact? Last time I took the
time to snoop a running torrent, I didn't get the the impression it was
pulling packets from the same country as I, let alone my network
neighbors.
That would be totally dependent on what tracker you use.
Geo.
On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 10:45:49PM -0400, Geo. wrote:
[snip]
> Second, the more people on your network running fileshare network software
> and sharing, the less backbone bandwidth your users are going to use when
> downloading from a fileshare network because those on your network are
> going
Will P2P applications really never learn to play nicely on the network?
So from an operations perspective, how should P2P protocols be designed?
There appears that the current solution at the moment is for ISP's to
put up barriers to P2P usage (like comcasts spoof'd RSTs), and thus P2P
On Tue, Oct 23, 2007, Perry Lorier wrote:
> Would having a way to proxy p2p downloads via an ISP proxy be used by
> ISPs and not abused as an additional way to shutdown and limit p2p
> usage? If so how would clients discover these proxies or should they be
> manually configured?
http://www.a
> Would stronger topological sharing be beneficial? If so, how do you
> suggest end users software get access to the information required to
> make these decisions in an informed manner?
I would think simply looking at the TTL of packets from it's peers should be
sufficient to decide who is c
Adrian Chadd wrote:
[..]
> Here's the real question. If an open source protocol for p2p content
> routing and distribution appeared?
It is called NNTP, it exists and is heavily used for doing exactly where
most people use P2P for: Warezing around without legal problems.
NNTP is of course "nice" t
Sean Donelan wrote:
Much of the same content is available through NNTP, HTTP and P2P. The
content part gets a lot of attention and outrage, but network
engineers seem to be responding to something else.
If its not the content, why are network engineers at many university
networks, enterpri
* Adrian Chadd:
> So which ISPs have contributed towards more intelligent p2p content
> routing and distribution; stuff which'd play better with their
> networks?
Perhaps Internet2, with its DC++ hubs? 8-P
I think the problem is that better "routing" (Bittorrent content is
*not* routed by the p
Sean
I don't think this is an issue of "fairness." There are two issues at play
here:
1) Legal Liability due to the content being swapped. This is not a technical
matter IMHO.
2) The breakdown of network engineering assumptions that are made when
network operators are designing networks.
I thi
Interesting. I imainge this could have a large impact to the typical
enterprise, where they might do large scale upgrades in a short period
of time.
Does anyone know if there are any plans by Microsoft to push this out as
a Windows XP update as well?
S
Leo Bicknell wrote:
Windows Vista,
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Bora Akyol wrote:
I think network operators that are using boxes like the Sandvine box are
doing this due to (2). This is because P2P traffic hits them where it hurts,
aka the pocketbook. I am sure there are some altruistic network operators
out there, but I would be sincere
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Sam Stickland wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any plans by Microsoft to push this out as
a Windows XP update as well?
You can achieve the same thing by running a utility such as TCP Optimizer.
http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php
Turn on window scaling and incre
I see your point. The main problem I see with the traffic shaping or worse
boxes is that comcast/ATT/... Sells a particular bandwidth to the customer.
Clearly, they don't provision their network as Number_Customers*Data_Rate,
they provision it to a data rate capability that is much less than the
m
Bora Akyol wrote:
1) Legal Liability due to the content being swapped. This is not a technical
matter IMHO.
Instead of sending an icmp host unreachable, they are closing the connection via
spoofing. I think it's kinder than just dropping the packets all together.
2) The breakdown of networ
In a message written on Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:42:48PM +0200, Mikael
Abrahamsson wrote:
> You can achieve the same thing by running a utility such as TCP Optimizer.
>
> http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php
>
> Turn on window scaling and increase the TCP window size to 1 meg or so,
> and you
I'm a bit late to this conversation but I wanted to throw out a few bits of
info not covered.
A company called Oversi makes a very interesting solution for caching
Torrent and some Kad based overlay networks as well all done through some
cool strategically placed taps and prefetching. This w
I wonder how quickly applications and network gear would implement QoS
support if the major ISPs offered their subscribers two queues: a default
queue, which handled regular internet traffic but squashed P2P, and then a
separate queue that allowed P2P to flow uninhibited for an extra $5/month,
but
>>> On 10/22/2007 at 3:02 PM, "Frank Bulk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder how quickly applications and network gear would implement
QoS
> support if the major ISPs offered their subscribers two queues: a
default
> queue, which handled regular internet traffic but squashed P2P, and
then a
>
> ... Why not suck up and go with the
> economic solution? Seems like the easy thing is for the ISPs to come
> clean and admit their "unlimited" service is not and put in upload
> caps and charge for overages.
Who will be the first? If there *is* competition in the
marketplace, the cable company
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- -- "Crist Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[...] How
>many P2P protocols are already blocking/shaping evasive?
The Storm botnet? :-)
- - ferg
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 05:16:08PM -0700, Crist Clark wrote:
> It seems to me is what hurts the ISPs is the accompanying upload
> streams, not the download (or at least the ISP feels the same
> download pain no matter what technology their end user uses to get
> the data[0]). Throwing more bandwid
I'm not claiming that squashing P2P is easy, but apparently Comcast has
been successfully enough to generate national attention, and the bandwidth
shaping providers are not totally a lost cause.
The reality is that copper-based internet access technologies: dial-up, DSL,
and cable modems have mad
In a message written on Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:24:17PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote:
> The reality is that copper-based internet access technologies: dial-up, DSL,
> and cable modems have made the design-based trade off that there is
> substantially more downstream than upstream. With North American
>
On Oct 22, 2007, at 9:55 PM, Leo Bicknell wrote:
Having now seen the cable issue described in technical detail over
and over, I have a question.
At the most recent Nanog several people talked about 100Mbps symmetric
access in Japan for $40 US.
This leads me to two questions:
1) Is that accura
Here's a few downstream/upstream numbers and ratios:
ADSL2+: 24/1.5 = 16:1 (sans Annex.M)
DOCSIS 1.1: 38/9 = 4.2:1 (best case up and downstream modulations and
carrier widths)
BPON: 622/155 = 4:1
GPON: 2488/1244 = 2:1
Only the first is non-shared, so that even though the ratio is
With PCMM (PacketCable Multimedia,
http://www.cedmagazine.com/out-of-the-lab-into-the-wild.aspx) support it's
possible to dynamically adjust service flows, as has been done with
Comcast's "Powerboost". There also appears to be support for flow
prioritization.
Regards,
Frank
-Original Messa
On 10/21/07, Leo Bicknell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Windows Vista, and next week Mac OS X Leopard introduced a significant
> improvement to the TCP stack, Window Auto-Tuning. FreeBSD is
> committing TCP Socket Buffer Auto-Sizing in FreeBSD 7. I've also
> been told similar features are in th
I don't see how this Oversi caching solution will work with today's HFC
deployments -- the demodulation happens in the CMTS, not in the field. And
if we're talking about de-coupling the RF from the CMTS, which is what is
happening with M-CMTSes
(http://broadband.motorola.com/ips/modular_CMTS.html
A lot of the MDUs and apartment buildings in Japan are doing fiber to the
basement and then VDSL or VDSL2 in the building, or even Ethernet. That's
how symmetrical bandwidth is possible. Considering that much of the
population does not live in high-rises, this doesn't easily apply to the
U.S. po
David Andersen wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/28/AR2007082801990.html
Followed by a recent explosion in fiber-to-the-home buildout by NTT.
"About 8.8 million Japanese homes have fiber lines -- roughly nine times
the number in the United States." -- part
According to
http://torrentfreak.com/comcast-throttles-bittorrent-traffic-seeding-impossible/
Comcast's blocking affects connections to non-Comcast users. This
means that they're trying to manage their upstream connections, not the
local loop.
For Comcast's own position, see
http://bits.blogs.ny
On Oct 22, 2007, at 11:02 PM, Jeff Shultz wrote:
David Andersen wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/28/
AR2007082801990.html
Followed by a recent explosion in fiber-to-the-home buildout by
NTT. "About 8.8 million Japanese homes have fiber lines --
rough
Hey Rich.
We discussed the technology before but the actual mental click here is
important -- thank you.
BTW, I *think* it was Randy Bush who said "today's leechers are
tomorrow's cachers". His quote was longer but I can't remember it.
Gadi.
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Rich Groves wrote
Once upon a time, David Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> But no - I was as happy as everyone else when the CLECs emerged and
> provided PRI service at 1/3rd the rate of the ILECs
Not only was that CLEC service concetrated in higher-density areas, the
PRI prices were often not based in reali
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Majdi S. Abbas wrote:
What hurt these access providers, particularly those in the
cable market, was a set of failed assumptions. The Internet became a
commodity, driven by this web thing. As a result, standards like DOCSIS
developed, and bandwidth was allocated, fr
Frank,
The problem caching solves in this situation is much less complex than what
you are speaking of. Caching toward your client base brings down your
transit costs (if you have any)or lowers congestion in congested
areas if the solution is installed in the proper place. Caching tow
On Tue, Oct 23, 2007, Sean Donelan wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Majdi S. Abbas wrote:
> > What hurt these access providers, particularly those in the
> >cable market, was a set of failed assumptions. The Internet became a
> >commodity, driven by this web thing. As a result, standards lik
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:39:48 PDT, Hex Star said:
> I can see "advanced operating systems" consuming much more bandwidth
> in the near future then is currently the case, especially with the web
> 2.0 hype.
You obviously have a different concept of "near future" than the rest of us,
and you've appa
Hi All,
I am looking for hosting facilities for about 10-20 racks and Internet
transit with good local connectivity in Jordan, can anybody help?
Thanks,
Leigh Porter
UK Broaband/PCCW
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote:
Ok, maybe the greedy commercial folks screwed up and deserve what they
got; but why are the nobel non-profit universities having the same
problems?
Because if you look at a residential population with ADSL2+ and 10/10 or
100/100 respectively, the upl
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:35:21 EDT, Sean Donelan said:
> This doesn't explain why many universities, most with active, symmetric
> ethernet switches in residential dorms, have been deploying packet shaping
> technology for even longer than the cable companies. If the answer was
> as simple as upgra
On Monday 22 October 2007 19:20, David Andersen wrote:
> Followed by a recent explosion in fiber-to-the-home buildout by NTT.
> "About 8.8 million Japanese homes have fiber lines -- roughly nine
> times the number in the United States." -- particularly impressive
> when you count that in per
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