. März 2003 14:09
An: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Betreff: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Hi Paula
Hey... I live in your world.
Our data warehouse was designed by someone who had never dealt with
ANYTHING relational... but based it on VSAM files and tried to make
:/B
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RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?BRBR/FONT/DIV
PFONT size=2I understand what database modeling is for, the different
types
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Yes. Also, I don't. Please tell me why that matters - I think you are onto something here.
Oracle OCP DBA
-Original Message-
From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 2:39 PM
Paula - I deal with a lot of developers. I'll try to say this as charitably
as I can. I think that sometimes people that come from a Microsoft
background are a little insulated from the physical aspects of the system. I
think they focus on following Microsoft procedures (reboot, if still broke,
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Hi, My opinion is
that DB must be normalized. In Oracle Apps ( ERP/CRM), development team uses
(all most all ways) views ( joined and denormalized) for the developers on the
base tables (normalized). None of the base tables
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Paula,
Keep
fighting for normalization. Something almost all developers fail to
recognize is the long-term use of the database - they only think in the "here
and now" - they need to develop the application right
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Hi
Paula
Hey...
I live in your world.
Our
"data warehouse" was designed by someone who had never dealt with ANYTHING
relational... but based it on VSAM files and tried to make the
leap.
We
have a table with 8
] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 6:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Guys,
The emphasis in many places I have worked is developing quick and dirty
systems as quickly as possible and working
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
DBA
are responsible for the data model.
I
spend time toshow the developpers the benefits of data
normalization.
I do
not agree with Tom on "A good data model produces good opportunities for all
kinds of data retrieval
Paula
I think their use of the term object-oriented maybe be incorrect. That
said, some new converts to object-oriented get carried away. Some even want
to use Oracle in an object-oriented manner. In an effort to please everyone,
Oracle has even added object-oriented features to tables. I
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Of
course, a star schema is better for a warehouse. But I think your point
and mine are the same. A flat schema is good for
nothing.
Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional
-Original Message-From: Stephane
Stephane - I think both you and Tom are right. Report writers like systems
that are somewhat denormalized. But according to Paula it sounded like her
developers didn't even understand normalization to begin with. I think there
is normalization, denormalization, and doesn't have a clue. I may have
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
April,
I'll go one better. We don't even have unique indexes much less primary keys and foreign keys. Only about 20 percent of the tables have unique indexes. A few others do have primary keys but they are used really just
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Oh, I
love it!
I have
been told (repeatedly) that I just don't understand... "they" (Codd, IBM,
Oracle, insert your professional) don't understand how we do business. It
just isn't THAT easy.
example...
s
: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs
or What?
DBA
are responsible for the data model.
I
spend time toshow the developpers the benefits of data
normalization.
I do
not agree with Tom on "A good data model produces good opportunities for all
kinds of
Just a couple of comments here, Dennis.
-Original Message-
From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 25 March 2003 14:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Paula
I think their use
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
I know but seem to have to work with developers these days who don't understand the basics of normalization and the tradeoffs - lack of data integrity, lack of extensiblity. Saying to them and even showing them data integrity
In order to DENORMALIZE, you need to have NORMALIZED schema in the first
place (and only then go on with denormalization business).
Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 11:24
Pulcifer
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003
11:59 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject:
RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
OLTP
= Normalize
OLAP/DSS = DeNormalize
End
of discussion. We figured this out what, 10 years ago
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
I understand what database modeling is for, the different types of normalization and denormalization and the tradeoffs in different types of systems and ultimately to the data access of the system driven (should
are less persuasive.
Allan
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:49 PMTo: Multiple
recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Database Modeling-
Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
I know but seem to have to work
Paula - In reflecting on the different developers I deal with, by any chance
do these developers you are dealing with have a strong Microsoft background?
Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:00 PM
To: Multiple
the Pope - eh? all these duhvelopers must be Catholic ;)
i feel for you Paula. this is a battle many shops fight (including this
one) and often it isn't easy to win. one suggestion - have your management
play the consultant game with them. hire an outside consultant to come in
and tell them
om: Jeremy Pulcifer
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003
11:59 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs
or What?
OLTP = Normalize
OLAP/DSS = DeNormalize
End of discussion. We figured this ou
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Paula,
The
way you're talking it seems developpers have a lot of rights.
Here,
it depends on the applications,most applications have to get their model
approved by the DBA team to start development. Right now it's only
Title: RE: Database Modeling- Normalization - Dinosaurs or What?
Guys,
The emphasis in many places I have worked is developing quick and dirty systems as quickly as possible and working with developers that don't seem to have very much understanding of Relational Database Theory but who
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