> It would be interesting to know what the composition of this NAS panel
> is. Any friends of EPI?
>
> Peter Dorman
>
> > Next month, a newly appointed committee convened by the
> National Academy of
> > Sciences will begin a 2-year study of a wide range of issues
> related to cost of living
> >Even proponents have to concede that the sample size is pretty small. How
> >many wave cycles have there been?
>
> Doug,
>
> Haven't you ever heard the expression "It ain't the meat, it's
> the motion."
I thought it was:
It ain't the flag on the ship;
it's the motion in the ocean.
How m
I am pleased to report that at least one liberal organization
in Washington, D.C., one in which I happen to participate,
has not lost its mind. (see below)
The item below is not a bad point of departure for a counter-statement
either. It's not crazy to run at least some surplus if employment is
It is sad to see so many from the mainstream of liberal Keynesianism abandonding
all hope of accomplishing anything. Paying down the debt was a traditional
Republican plank [honored in the breach by radical tax reforms.]
The petition is important in that it shows the weakness of "playing by the
I neglected to put quotes around a Harvey quote, which are in this version.
Doug quoting David Harvey:
>Bramwell
>(1989), for example, points out the Nazi connection, not only via Heidegger
>(whose role is more emblematic than real) but also via the building of a
>distinctively fascist tradition
Doug wrote:
>How do you know where to muck, or how?
I have a board version of Bertell Olmann's "Class Struggle" and I throw darts.
Louis Proyect
(http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)
Doug quoting David Harvey:
>Bramwell
>(1989), for example, points out the Nazi connection, not only via Heidegger
>(whose role is more emblematic than real) but also via the building of a
>distinctively fascist tradition around German romanticism, themes about
>"blood and soil" and the like, incid
(From "Late Capitalism)
The history of capitalism on the international plane thus appears not only
as a succession of cyclical movements every 7 or 10 years, but also as a
succession of longer periods, of approximately 50 years, of which we have
experienced four up till now:
-- the long period f
Louis Proyect wrote:
>I prefer to muck around in the class struggle rather than theorize about it.
How do you know where to muck, or how? You have a theory, whether you know
it or not.
Doug
Louis Proyect wrote:
> Yes, and one of the authors David Harvey relies on makes a big deal
>about Nazi support for the American Indians. All this stuff is a red herring.
David Harvey wrote:
Bioregionalism as a cultural movement therefore:
celebrates the particular, the unique and often indescr
>One
>
>>De Long, J. Bradford, University of California at Berkeley
>
>signed the pro-surplus petition. What are you thinking Brad?
>
>Doug
Get me Gephardt in the Speaker's chair and I will begin dusting off all my
Alan Blinder talking points:
--deficit (and debt) reduction is a means to
Rosser Jr, John Barkley wrote:
> I beg to differ. There is plenty of disagreement
>about the existence of long waves. A lot of people,
>including many on this list, think that they are just a
>bunch of hooey.
Even proponents have to concede that the sample size is pretty small. How
many wa
One
>De Long, J. Bradford, University of California at Berkeley
signed the pro-surplus petition. What are you thinking Brad?
Doug
Charles Brown wrote:
>What is the political significance of long waves ? At the crest or the
>trough or in between , capitalism still needs to go. How does knowing
>there are long waves help to bring that about ?
>What is Shaikh's practice ?
I don't know how much Anwar plans to speak for himsel
Wasn't Jevons the guy who argued that sunspots helped explain recessions?
SP
Tom Walker wrote:
> "It is evident that questions of this kind depend greatly upon the character
> of the race . . . A man of lower race, a negro for instance, enjoys
> possession less, and loathes labour more; his exe
Forwarded message:
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:06:40 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CREDIT CRUNCH COULD CRUSH U.S. ECONOMY
X-UID: 7640
The Financial Post February 5, 1999
CREDIT CRUNCH COULD CR
Forwarded message:
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:05:28 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CLINTON ALLIES KEEP POVERTY OFF THE NATIONAL AGENDA
X-UID: 7661
CLINTON ALLIES KEEP POVERTY OFF THE NATIONAL AGENDA
By Norman Solom
Charles,
I think that we need to be clear about exactly at what
point there was a "taking" here, illegal, unethical,
inappropriately capitalistic, insufficiently "meeting of th
minds" or whatever. I would contend that it was not when
the Dutch gave some Lenapes or whomever some glass bead
Barkley:
> Why does this not
>apply to former Indian tribal holders of the land, if you
>don't like the term "territory" for a defined piece of land?
> I note as a simple example, that the Chippewa drove
>the Sioux out of Northern Wisconsin after they defeated
>them in a battle in 1666 in
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/05 4:51 PM >>>
Barkley comments:
Not so simple. You say that "it's between them," but
then if a European shows up the latest holder somehow has a
mystical right that their ignorance of what the Europeans
are about grants them in perpe
In the Afterword to the Second German Edition to vol. I of _Capital_ , Marx says:
"The contradictions inherent in the movement of capitalist society impress themselves
upon the practical bourgeois most strikingly in the changes of the periodic cycles,
through which modern industry runs, and who
It would be interesting to know what the composition of this NAS panel
is. Any friends of EPI?
Peter Dorman
Richardson_D wrote:
>
> BLS DAILY REPORT, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 1999
>
> Next month, a newly appointed committee convened by the National Academy of
> Sciences will begin a 2-year study
Charles,
Not so simple. You say that "it's between them," but
then if a European shows up the latest holder somehow has a
mystical right that their ignorance of what the Europeans
are about grants them in perpetuity. Why does this not
apply to former Indian tribal holders of the land, i
Doug Henwood,
>Even proponents have to concede that the sample size is pretty small. How
>many wave cycles have there been?
Doug,
Haven't you ever heard the expression "It ain't the meat, it's the motion."
regards,
Tom Walker
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/05 3:45 PM >>>
Charles,
In most locations the tribes that were in place when
Europeans first showed up were not the first tribes to
inhabit or claim as "tribal territory" that land.
Charles: "Territory" is a term referring to
"It is evident that questions of this kind depend greatly upon the character
of the race . . . A man of lower race, a negro for instance, enjoys
possession less, and loathes labour more; his exertions, therefore, soon stop."
-- W. Stanley Jevons, "Theory of Labour", _The Theory of Political Econo
Henry,
You may not be a Post Keynesian, but many of them
would argue that any calculation of present value is a
crock, even out a few years, because of fundamental
uncertainty.
Perhaps in practice the Brits used 30 years on valuing
consols, although that is not what I have read. But
Needless to say, this bit from the archives from me
(thanks, Michael) is much more complete and accurate than
the little bit I just sent.
Barkley Rosser
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:37 -0800 (PST)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Forwarded message:
> >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Dec 17 16:13:43 1998
Barkley,
Pretty much all of the indigenous peoples have been studied by anthropologists; and
the generalization I made works for the North Americans pretty well, including the
groups in the vicinity of Manhattan. Your word "grandiose" sounds like only one or two
tribes have been studied and th
Barkley wrote:
>Louis,
>You may think that "business cycles" are a "bourgeois
>concept" but Karl Marx certainly didn't. Check it out in
>Volume III of _Capital_.
I thought Marx wrote about things like the crisis of overproduction.
"Business cycles" reminds me too much of plainting cycles,
In his magisterial three volume work, *Civilization and Capitalism
15th-18th Century*, Braudel had already challenged Wallerstein's
"fascination" with the 16th century; "there have always been
world-economies", he observed (Vol. 3, 24). Ancient Phoenicia,
Carthage, the Hellenic world, Rome,
Louis,
You may think that "business cycles" are a "bourgeois
concept" but Karl Marx certainly didn't. Check it out in
Volume III of _Capital_.
As for Trotsky, see "The Curve of Capitalist
Development" [1923] reprinted in _Problems of Everyday
Life_, 1973, New York: Monad Press, pp. 2
Josh: There is a real question here. I don't mean in any way to downplay
the terrible injustices Native Americans have suffered and (to my mind,
more important) continue to suffer. I entirely support the work people, you
included, are doing to raise awareness of them. But what you're saying here
i
Charles,
In most locations the tribes that were in place when
Europeans first showed up were not the first tribes to
inhabit or claim as "tribal territory" that land. So, if
the tribes there when the Europeans arrived have permanent
property rights because they had no concept of property
Dennis Redmond wrote,
>But is this really true? What on earth would Japan and the EU have to gain
>from confronting the US with military means? Sure, the US keeps bombing
>the hell out of 3rd World nations, which is horrendous and criminal, but
>how do you whip the masses up for WW II-style slaug
> Saying that the best way to assure long-term growth is to give a large tax
> cut to the rich?
I'll assume that's a rhetorical question
addressed to some imaginary Republican
with a fluffy tail named Harvey.
> I would rather see the (potential future) surplus used to finance an
> expansion of
In regard to Louis's remarks about the Lenape trails in
New York, I just learned while visiting LA some days ago
that Wilshire Boulevard was originally an Indian trail, at
least at its upper end. Before the Spanish establishe El
Pueblo de Nuestro Senora de la Reina de Los Angeles de
Port
Louis Proyect:
>Returning Manhattan to the Indians? This is a joke, right? I haven't heard
>this kind of Rush Limbaugh-tainted leftism, since I first started posting
>about indigenous struggles on PEN-L a year ago.
I thought I was paraphrasing something you actually wrote. Maybe I'm wrong, or ma
>Barkley, as I pointed out in my initial reply to Anwar, I admire Mandel
>greatly. Except for Marx himself, the only other economists I have taken
>the trouble to read in any kind of depth are Mandel, O'Connor, Sweezy,
>Baran and Magdoff.
Oh, I forgot my favorite: Michael Perelman.
Louis Proyec
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/05 3:06
I would note that among most tribes there was at least
a rudimentary sense of tribal ownership, if not of personal
ownership.. Certain tribes had primary rights in certain
territories and this was often decided by intertribal
warfa
>Read it and weep.
>
>Anyone for a counter-statement?
>
>Max Sawicky
Yeah, well I note that Paul 'lump o' labor' Samuelson is on the list with an
asterix denoting Nobel Prize Winner. Dr. S. has promulgated this bizarre
piece of turn-of-the-century propaganda for 50 years through 16 editions of
hi
> Although there are bourgeois economists who do long
>waves, it has a long history of study by Marxists who were
>among the first to promulgate the idea. Trotsky was a fan
>of the idea very early on, the obvious source of Mandel's
>interest. The person most widely associated with it was
Charles,
You are doing something that we have seen a bit too
much of on some of these lists, namely making grandiose
generalizations about all "indigenous peoples" especially
Native American Indians. There were lots of tribal
variations in many practices and social/economic relations
an
Louis,
I beg to differ. There is plenty of disagreement
about the existence of long waves. A lot of people,
including many on this list, think that they are just a
bunch of hooey.
Barkley Rosser
On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:14:03 -0500 Charles Brown
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the p
Ricardo wrote:
>In his magisterial three volume work, *Civilization and Capitalism
>15th-18th Century*, Braudel had already challenged Wallerstein's
>"fascination" with the 16th century; "there have always been
>world-economies", he observed (Vol. 3, 24).
I just want to say that I highly app
Louis,
Although there are bourgeois economists who do long
waves, it has a long history of study by Marxists who were
among the first to promulgate the idea. Trotsky was a fan
of the idea very early on, the obvious source of Mandel's
interest. The person most widely associated with it w
I confess to having no idea what was in the minds of
the Indians who participated in the transaction in
question. I think that the blanket claim that "Indians had
no conception of private property" is highly questionable
as they engaged in all kinds of trade with each other and
presumab
"Rosser Jr, John Barkley" wrote:
> Henry,
> Every present value formula actually goes to infinity,
> although often the entries are zeroes after some finite
> point in time.
>
Barkley, please read carefully.
I wrote : "I cannot conceive a present value formula that covers 200 years."
A pr
>... Day and Walter are
>more concerned with the much longer wave (300 years) theory
>of "la duree" due to Fernand Braudel,...
This reminds me of the 3000 year Enived cycle, of which the Braudel cycle
is but a small fraction. We are currently 500 years into "phase B" of the
Enived Wave, which i
Read it and weep.
Anyone for a counter-statement?
Max Sawicky
--
Opinions reflected above do not necessarily
represent those of anyone else associated
with the E.P.I.
--
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLO
Charles wrote:
>What is the political significance of long waves ? At the crest or the
trough or in between , capitalism still needs to go. How does knowing there
are long waves help to bring that about ?
>What is Shaikh's practice ?
Charles, economists have always strived for inclusion in the w
I'm told that Alicia Munnell is circulating
a petition supporting the Administration's
budget proposal and saying something to the
effect that the best way to assure long-term
growth is to pay off the national debt.
I will report more as soon as I find anything
out.
I'd love to see a counter-pet
Dear Mr. Proyect:
One of our cyber-officers found the following scurrilous comments
while on a routine patrol. You are fortunate that we are treating them
as an expression of the misconceived moral superiority you feel in
knowing that your people arrived far too late to take part in the
conq
--3413BFBDE72F86135BBEE951
Dear Pen-L,
I received this am a draft copy of People Power Over Corporate Power, A
Brief History of Democracy in Ohio and Challenges to Organizing in the
Future. This is a very professionally researched work that will be
published in pamphlet form thi
What is the political significance of long waves ? At the crest or the trough or in
between , capitalism still needs to go. How does knowing there are long waves help to
bring that about ?
What is Shaikh's practice ?
Charles Brown
>>> Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/05 2:04 PM >>>
Barkl
Indigenous people didn't have no concept of property. They had no PRIVATE property.
Private property is not the only form of property. Property is a social relation of
production, a relationship between people regarding things. Indigenous peoples had
production and relations of production. The
In haste, I wrote: >The measure of the profit rate is not related to
present value; it's not
>the internal rate of return. It's simply a ratio of a current flow of
>income (profit income, however measured) to a stock (the value of
>capitalist assets, however measured) at a specific time. It's easy
Barkley wrote:
> Anyway, as a former participant not particularly
>interested in getting into again in any depth, and not
>knowing the details of Shaikh's particular take on the
>theory, let me note that there are many explanations
>promulgated out there for long waves. However, the most
Louis,
Well, we've debated long wave theory at length on this
list before. Don't know if you were around for those
episodes, Lou, but it should be in the archives.
Anyway, as a former participant not particularly
interested in getting into again in any depth, and not
knowing the det
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Barkley know better. The Dutch did not BUY Manhattan since the indigenous
>people had no conception private proerty. They gave beads and the people
>let them stay there and use the land. Only later did they declare it to
>be private property.
>
>Sorting out rights and
Henry,
Every present value formula actually goes to infinity,
although often the entries are zeroes after some finite
point in time. However, I would remind that in the heyday
of pompous capitalism in Victorian England, they used to
issue infinitely lived consols.
Barkley Rosser
On Fri,
NY Times, Nov. 19, 1998: "For years, Timothy J. Stoddard has tried to be
noticed in his campaign for American Indian rights. A member of the Mohegan
tribe, he and other American Indians sought to celebrate tribal prayer and
water ceremonies last year on Liberty Island, home to the Statue of
Libert
Actually the Dutch purchased Manhatten from the local
tribes. So, there is no issue of "giving back" there,
unless one nullifies all such transactions or says that the
tribes did not have the right to sell it. Many have
ridiculed the price and method of payment, wampum (glass)
beads, s
I've surfed the web in a never-ending quest for the perfect long wave.
Alas! All I've found is a swamp of confusion. The tides of history refuse to
be bound by the theories of economists.
Michael
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Tom Walker wrote:
> of surplus value in order to maintain political hegemony. Think of the
> stop/go monetary/fiscal policies in which "overheating" of the economy
> remains a constant worry. In terms of "this depression", we're not out of
> the woods yet. And, like the last e
>This must be from the same part of your program as returning Manhattan to
the Indians. I suppose you wouldn't be interested in arguments that the
Elgin marbles or Kennewick Man are part of the common patrimony of humanity
rather than the property of their creators' decendants. But is "to each
acc
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Louis Proyect wrote:
> If Great Britain had resisted the Monroe
> Doctrine, would there have been a "long wave" or would the US economy have
> stagnated? Perhaps the long waves are nothing but a barometer of the
> imperialist lurches forward of the Yankee republic.
I always t
Josh Mason:
There are two issues here.
1) We would be happy to share our stolen heritage if the West will share the wealth it
stole from the rest of the world.
2) It is a matter of location, even if not ownership. Art objects are best displayed
in the environment of their creation. Why should
Louis Proyect:
> the whole question of museums. Something tells me that these sorts of
>institutions should be dismantled after the capitalist system is
>overthrown, and the contents returned to the rightful owners.
This must be from the same part of your program as returning Manhattan to the I
There is already an anti-hate crime U.S. criminal statute, 18 USCS 1091, et seq. It is
the U.S. adoption of the UN (anti-) Genocide Convention. This is the international
codification of the Nuremburg Principles. However, it does not include groups of
sexual preference in its definitions of pote
Forwarded message:
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Dec 17 16:13:43 1998
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:55:14 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Originator: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [PEN-L:8194] long waves references
X-Comm
"Perelman, Michael" wrote:
From: "Anwar Shaikh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Part of my work has involved showing that a secular fall in the rate
> of profit provides a theoretical foundation for long waves.
>
> In the US, the mass of profit began a strong persistent upward
> trend in the early 1980's,
Please send me a copy. I did tried to reply by private e-mail, but got
a "user unknown" message.
Tom Lehman wrote:
>
> Dear Pen-L,
>
> I received this am a draft copy of People Power Over Corporate
> Power, A Brief History of Democracy in Ohio and Challenges to
> Organizing in the Future. Th
Courtesy of the PUBLABOR list:
Middle Age is having a choice of two temptations
and choosing the one that will get you home earlier.
> Then: Killer Weed
> Now: Weed Killer
>
> Then: The Grateful Dead
> Now: Dr. Kevorkian
>
> Then: Gettin
>I'm told that Alicia Munnell is circulating
>a petition supporting the Administration's
>budget proposal and saying something to the
>effect that the best way to assure long-term
>growth is to pay off the national debt.
>
>I will report more as soon as I find anything
>out.
>
>I'd love to see a c
>>Mary Malloy, at Iona College, is another person
>> who has worked on linking long waves to profits, and has taken her
>> data back almost 150 years.
>
>Profit is only an accounting concept. I am unaware of any financial contract
>that exceeds 100 years, most are 30 years with one adjustable ren
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--_=_NextPart_000_01BE5128.FAB855E0
BLS DAILY REPORT, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 1999
Next month, a newly appointed committee convened by the National Academy o
>Charles wrote:
>>What is the political significance of long waves ? At the crest or the
>trough or in between , capitalism still needs to go. How does knowing there
>are long waves help to bring that about ?
>>What is Shaikh's practice ?
Louis answers:
>Charles, economists have always strived
Anwar Shaikh wrote:
>Dear Mr. Proyect
>
>My argument is not that of Mandel. It would be helpful to me if I
>could tell exactly where you disagree. That was the reason I listed
>the specific articles dealing with the theory. Your theoretical base
>seems as obscure to me as mine apparently does t
At 10:44 AM 2/5/99 -0800, Michael wrote:
>Barkley know[s] better. The Dutch did not BUY Manhattan since the indigenous
>people had no conception [of] private proerty. They gave beads and the
people
>let them stay there and use the land. Only later did they declare it to
>be private property.
a
Barkley Rosser wrote,
>promulgated out there for long waves. However, the most
>frequently cited and most credible to my mind involve
>technological change. One can dislike or reject the
>argument, but it involves the downturns triggering new
>innovations and the upturns essentially being t
> Courtesy of the PUBLABOR list:
>
> Middle Age is having a choice of two temptations
> and choosing the one that will get you home earlier.
>
> > Then: Killer Weed
> > Now: Weed Killer[...and so on]
Max has found some great material for sublimating proto-midlife angst,
but I w
Doug Henwood wrote:
> How'd we go from "no conception of private property" to "their plant
> genome"? Whose genome is it anyway?
Monsanto's, of course! Alas, Doug is correct, that it was not their private
genome property, but once the idea of property is imposed on such matters, then
the indige
Must have been the hand of the Hollywood Ten.
CB
>>> Terrence Mc Donough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/05 5:16 AM >>>
> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:46:02 -0600 (CST)
> From: "William S. Lear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [PEN-L:2887] Re: Re: Surrender, Dorothy.
> To:
Jeff Thompson wrote:
>several times on pen-l you have made reference to statements by Anwar
>where he feels that we may be starting to climb the "boom phase" of a long
>wave.
>
>If he has put these comments down in any publications, could you provide
>me with the cite?
He just told me about his
Anwar Sheik:
>In the US, the mass of profit began a strong persistent upward
>trend in the early 1980's, and has been trending upward steadily
>since. For this reason, I trace the turnaround point in the US to the
>mid-1980's. There another also other quite remarkably consistent
>measure of lo
Barkley know better. The Dutch did not BUY Manhattan since the indigenous
people had no conception private proerty. They gave beads and the people
let them stay there and use the land. Only later did they declare it to
be private property.
Sorting out rights and wrongs after a theft is difficu
> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:46:02 -0600 (CST)
> From: "William S. Lear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [PEN-L:2887] Re: Re: Surrender, Dorothy.
> To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Thu, February 4, 1999 at 16:40:18 (-0500) Max Sawicky
Max wrote,
> > Then: Worrying about no one coming to your party
> > Now: Worrying about no one coming to your funeral
You're all invited.
Time and place,
remains,
to be decided.
regards,
Tom Walker
Max wrote,
> > Then: Worrying about no one coming to your party
> > Now: Worrying about no one coming to your funeral
You're all invited.
Time and place
remains to be decided.
regards,
Tom Walker
Anwar Shaikh wrote,
>A long wave recovery of course requires a settlement of class
>struggle in favor of the (surviving) big capitals. A sharp recovery of
>profits is only a (lagging) indicator of this. And here, in the
>advanced countries at least, the outcome seems clear to me. The
>decisiv
Yip Harburg was a solid leftist who wrote "Brother, can you spare a dime"
as well as lyrics for numerous working-class musicals in the WPA days.
>Don't forget the lyrics for the songs in the movie by Yip Harburg.
>The story is told in the book:
>
>Who Put the Rainbow in the Wizard of Oz? : Yip H
From: "Anwar Shaikh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: S.O.A.S.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:47:47 GMT
Subject: long wave recovery
Jeff
My analysis of the US economy's recovery is not published. I am
working on a book now, but am a long way from that particular
section.
Par
the associative juxtaposition by which this thread is progressing Warhol --
window dressing -- Baum -- wizard of oz -- Harburg -- brother, can you spare
a dime --
>Yip Harburg was a solid leftist who wrote "Brother, can you spare a dime"
>as well as lyrics for numerous working-class musicals in
G'day Ange,
>wow, rob. i never thought of canberra as a city. a mall strung around
>a beautiful lake, but not a city.
Fair cop, guvnor.
You do describe it well. It's cleverly built so that the vast majority of
us don't get to see the lake, too. I s'pose one turns one's back on less
by leavin
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>As one who got the hell out of town (albeit not very far - we gotta
work)
wow, rob. i never thought of canberra as a city. a mall strung around
a beautiful lake, but not a city.
angela
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