serve changes in attitude just because a
person reads facts about an issue!
' Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Mikalac Norman S NSSC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:18 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4478] RE: Re: Castro on
At 12:48 PM 11/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I suspect that as the American economy continues to stagnate over
>the next decade or so, people will entertain all sorts of contrary notions
>on freedom and democracy.
though I think the economy is likely to stagnate during the next decade or
so, most wou
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/15/00 10:38AM >>>
BTW, Hayek's critique of central planning cuts both ways. Not only does it
say that an economy can't be planned effectively by a small centralized
planning agency, but it also says that the idea of a country being ruled
"nearly absolutely" is absurd.
Lou posted:
>The best news is Hugo
>Chavez's announcement that Venezuela will supply Cuba oil on a barter
>basis--Cuba will supply trained medical personnel.
And this fact shows how essential oil has & will be for a functioning
economy. No oil, no socialism. While I've disagreed with Mark Jon
>but what about the apparatchiks? won't they eventually form "The New Class"
>(Djilas) and wreck the cuban system from within?
>
>norm
There are no privileges associated with party membership or in holding
management positions in the Cuban state sector. In fact, this is one of the
reasons Cuban
On 15 Nov 00, at 12:48, Louis Proyect wrote:
Furthermore,
> I would put forward the rather contrarian notion--at least on PEN-L--that
> there is more artistic and political freedom than anywhere else in Latin
> America or the Caribbeans. Since most Americans define political
> participation on th
From: Louis Proyect:
Since most Americans define political participation on the basis of going
into an election booth every four years and pulling a lever for one or
another candidate of the same party (Democrat-Republican), it takes a mental
adjustment to think in other terms.
-
c Norman S NSSC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:13 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4471] RE: Re: RE: Castro on US elections (Britain studies
Cuban health care)
>your stats are consistent withe the UN ones i just poste
health.
norm
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4457] Re: RE: Castro on US elections.
>BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
>The Guardian (London), Monday Oct. 2, 20
>food security and nutrition (table 23) - daily per capita supply of
>calories:
>
>Cuba: 1970 at 2640; 1997 at 2480.
>
>what is causing the decrease? embargo? lack of Russian aid? won't that
>affect cuban health stats unfavorably in the future?
>
>
>norm
1970 was a particularly good time for
fascinating site, louis; just what i was looking for. thanks for posting
it.
for 1998, HDI (a composite index of life expectancy, education, GDP):
globally (table 1):
Canada is 1st at .935; US is 3rd at .929; Cuba is 56th at .783; Sierra Leone
is 174th (last) at .252. Australia seems to be r
Brad wrote:
>But the idea of a gerontocrat who hopes to rule his country nearly
>absolutely for 50 years giving lessons in political institution design is
>funny, isn't it?
I'll respect Brad's criticism of Castro's dictatorship when he shows that
he's in favor of democracy, by critiquing the d
At 10:13 PM 14/11/00 -0800, Michael wrote:
>Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose Castro were to hold an
>election. Suppose he had every intention of making it free and
>fair. Wouldn't
>it be a disaster? It would be open season for the CIA to try to do everything
>it could to muck
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/15/00 01:13AM >>>
This discussion about Castro is going nowhere. Brad knew, I feel confident, was
sort of response his comments would provoke. Others are pushing the heat up
even further. It's obviously time to stop.
Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose
By almost every measure Cuba bests other Latin American
countries except on some civic freedoms, but change will come
and when it does it will/should be decided by the Cubans living in
Cuba, because that's what they want.
> >BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
> >The Guardian (London),
>BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
>The Guardian (London), Monday Oct. 2, 2000
>By Sarah Boseley, health correspondent
>
>The NHS [British National Health Service] is turning to Cuba for
>inspiration on how to improve its services. Officials from the
>Department of Heath and 100 Gps [general
>Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose Castro were to hold an
>election. Suppose he had every intention of making it free and
>fair. Wouldn't
>it be a disaster? It would be open season for the CIA to try to do everything
>it could to muck things up.
>
>Can you imagine how much mone
This discussion about Castro is going nowhere. Brad knew, I feel confident, was
sort of response his comments would provoke. Others are pushing the heat up
even further. It's obviously time to stop.
Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose Castro were to hold an
election. Suppose he
7;t a clue what to do.
- Original Message -
From: Brad DeLong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4448] Re: Re: RE: Castro on US elections.
> >I agree that Brad's illusions are grotesque. It in no way follows
>I agree that Brad's illusions are grotesque. It in no way follows from what
>Fidel says that no change in government is superior to changes in government.
Does it follow from what Fidel does that no change in government is
superior to changes in government?
But the idea of a gerontocrat who ho
Ken Hanly wrote:
> [clip]
>
> [clip[>
>
> > i understand that lefties, like ideologues of other persuasions, like to
> > extol the virtues of their Weltanschaungen, but when the illusions become
> > grotesque, then i have to object.
It is amusing how often the plaints of red-baiters reduce to
D]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 1:24 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4421] RE: Castro on US elections.
> i would like to remind the posters of the theme of the initial posts (see
> below). we seemed to have strayed.
>
> i understand that lefties, like ideologues of other persuasions, lik
most powerful country in the world it does fairly well.
CHeers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Mikalac Norman S NSSC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 8:51 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4397] RE: Re: Castro on US elections.
> agreed, Fi
> >>Isn't forty years of this experiment enough? It seems kind of cruel
>to the people of Cuba to let it continue...
>Brad DeLong
>***
>You're right. Let's all call the White House and Congress and tell them to
>act like adults rather than imperialists and end the embargo.
>Ian
On this subje
L PROTECTED]' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 2:29 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4421] RE: Castro on US elections.
>i would like to remind the posters of the theme of the initial posts (see
>below). we seemed to have strayed.
>
>i understand that lefties, like ideolo
OTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4155] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
Fidel speaking:
> >>"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party systems, has
> >>two parties that are so perfectly similar in their methods, objectives
and
ED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 1:26 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4415] Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
>Norm,
> No. The relevant comparisons are with other
>Latin American and Caribbean nations. On those
>measures the lot of the poorest people in Cuba,
>and even those in
e Strait. if they decrease over time, then
> things must be looking up in Cuba. if US boats start heading south, then
> it's time the US adopted Fidel's system!
>
> norm
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Rob Schaap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: T
Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Brad DeLong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 12:00 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4406] Re: RE: Re: Castro on US elections.
>>agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head of the "dictatorship of
Norman S NSSC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:09 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4403] RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
>yes, i know the US has treated Cuba and other S.A. countries shabbily ever
>since it
irrelevant.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Mikalac Norman S NSSC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4397] RE: Re: Castro on US elections.
>agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head of
PEN-L:4398] RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
>to speak more accurately, i should compare per income quintiles btwn Cuba
>and US taking acount purchasing power parity. also, unemployment figures
>and other social indicators (crime, homeless, housing, etc.).
>
>anyone out there h
ect: [PEN-L:4399] Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
>>to speak more accurately, i should compare per income quintiles btwn Cuba
>>and US taking acount purchasing power parity. also, unemployment figures
>>and other social indicators (crime, homeless, housing, etc.).
>>
&
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/14/00 10:40AM >>>
Isn't forty years of this experiment enough? It seems kind of cruel
to the people of Cuba to let it continue...
((
CB: You Yanqui imperialists have not been letting it continue. What are you crying
about, Crocidile ? The Cuban people have
As opposed to what, Brad, the sort of lovely regimes we've installed and
supported all over Latin and Central AMerica? We destroyed Nicaragua's
revolution--are the Nicaraguans better off? I have profound unhappiness with
the lack of democracy in Cuba, but unlike the countries in the US
archipe
How about ending the experiments in El Salvador and Guatamala? Those
experiments with the market are not "kind of cruel" but brutal.
I don't understand how capitalism is judged only by US and Europe and not how it
is functioning in Indonesia, etc.
Gene Coyle
Brad DeLong wrote:
> >agreed, Fide
>>Isn't forty years of this experiment enough? It seems kind of cruel
to the people of Cuba to let it continue...
Brad DeLong
***
You're right. Let's all call the White House and Congress and tell them to
act like adults rather than imperialists and end the embargo.
Ian
>agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head of the "dictatorship of the proletariat",
>has improved the lot of the masses over their pre-revolutionary conditions.
>for years, so did the Bolsheviks and Chinese CP for their masses. from my
>ethical viewpoint those changes are commendable: better to have a ben
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/14/00 10:39AM >>>
however, even w/o public election financing, US universal health care is
still possible under the US democratic-capitalist system. the masses have
worked for and gained social improvements before (abolition, suffrage,
working conditions, etc.), so why n
>however, the fly in the ointment of Cuban achievements is the boat people
>risking their lives heading for the US. if things are so good there, then
>why risk life and limb to leave a good thing?
>
>norm
Because the United States will not allow automatic issuance of visas in
Cuba. Castro has i
--Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4401] Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
G'day Norman,
Can't help you with too many facts - perhaps Louis might come to the rescue
, work with them to sell it to the
politicians and hope this will overcome the resistance of the "haves".
(as you can see, i'm on a roll again today.)
norm
-Original Message-
From: Bill Burgess [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 12:17 AM
To: [EMAIL
.
>
>let's look at the facts - if they are available. engineers love facts!
>
>norm
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Justin Schwartz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:42 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [PEN-L:
>to speak more accurately, i should compare per income quintiles btwn Cuba
>and US taking acount purchasing power parity. also, unemployment figures
>and other social indicators (crime, homeless, housing, etc.).
>
>anyone out there have those data for Cuba? if not, why not? wouldn't Fidel
>want
facts - if they are available. engineers love facts!
norm
-Original Message-
From: Justin Schwartz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4240] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
I am not nearly as aggressive a defender
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 5:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4224] Re: Castro on US elections.
Norm wrote:
>US has no EFFECTIVE change in govt in 41 years, but Cuba has NONE
whatsoever
>in that time span.
The presence or absence of changes in politi
I am glad you appreciate my analysis. There are important differences,
important enough to support other capitalist nations
in a war against Germany. However, the US apparently did not think these
differences warranted going to war except very late in the game. In fact
many supported the Nazi atta
someone wrote:
>>The US has had no effective change of goverment in 41 years. Capital has
>>ruled throughout.
Brad wrote:
>Such an incisive analysis. Are we next to be told that there is no
>fundamental distinction between the Nazi party and Lyndon Johnson because
>they are both forms of rule
>The US has had no effective change of goverment in 41 years. Capital has
>ruled throughout.
Such an incisive analysis. Are we next to be told that there is no
fundamental distinction between the Nazi party and Lyndon Johnson
because they are both forms of rule of the bourgeoisie?
It's amazing
At 12:36 PM 09/11/00 -0500, Norm wrote:
>OK, health care is worse than in W.Europe and some don't have it at all in
>the US, but it's far better for most US citizens than just about anywhere
>else.
Far better for most US citizens? I doubt this.
But more to the point - why is _health_ in the US
I am not nearly as aggressive a defender of Cuba as Yoshie, and I am very
concerned about the lack of democracy there--although I think it is
perfectly understandable in the circumstances. I am also not as confident as
she that Cuba is socialist. But the notion that the poorest in the US--the
Norm wrote:
>US has no EFFECTIVE change in govt in 41 years, but Cuba has NONE whatsoever
>in that time span.
The presence or absence of changes in political representatives a la
liberal democracy does not tell us much about a given nation's
political direction. Cuba has undergone much social
ats right! I thought the
cake and the crumbs going to the poor was a more accurate analogy.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Brad DeLong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4155] Re: Re: Castro on
alogy.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Brad DeLong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4155] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
> >
> >>"The United States, such a vocal advocate of mul
>
>>"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party systems, has
>>two parties that are so perfectly similar in their methods, objectives and
>>goals that they have practically created the most perfect one-party system
>>in the world. Over 50% of the people in that 'democratic country' do
Largely true, but what reform, short of a revolution could change this?
Or, to be more practical, what reform to change this, could contribute to a
revolutionary movement?
Chris Burford
London
At 22:40 04/11/00 -0600, you wrote:
>"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party syste
"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party systems, has
two parties that are so perfectly similar in their methods, objectives and
goals that they have practically created the most perfect one-party system
in the world. Over 50% of the people in that 'democratic country' do not
e
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