At 12:48 PM 11/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
I suspect that as the American economy continues to stagnate over
the next decade or so, people will entertain all sorts of contrary notions
on freedom and democracy.
though I think the economy is likely to stagnate during the next decade or
so, most would
serve changes in attitude just because a
person reads facts about an issue!
' Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Mikalac Norman S NSSC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:18 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4478] RE: Re: Castro on US elections (UN
BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
The Guardian (London), Monday Oct. 2, 2000
By Sarah Boseley, health correspondent
The NHS [British National Health Service] is turning to Cuba for
inspiration on how to improve its services. Officials from the
Department of Heath and 100 Gps [general
By almost every measure Cuba bests other Latin American
countries except on some civic freedoms, but change will come
and when it does it will/should be decided by the Cubans living in
Cuba, because that's what they want.
BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
The Guardian (London),
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/15/00 01:13AM
This discussion about Castro is going nowhere. Brad knew, I feel confident, was
sort of response his comments would provoke. Others are pushing the heat up
even further. It's obviously time to stop.
Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose
At 10:13 PM 14/11/00 -0800, Michael wrote:
Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose Castro were to hold an
election. Suppose he had every intention of making it free and
fair. Wouldn't
it be a disaster? It would be open season for the CIA to try to do everything
it could to muck
Brad wrote:
But the idea of a gerontocrat who hopes to rule his country nearly
absolutely for 50 years giving lessons in political institution design is
funny, isn't it?
I'll respect Brad's criticism of Castro's dictatorship when he shows that
he's in favor of democracy, by critiquing the
food security and nutrition (table 23) - daily per capita supply of
calories:
Cuba: 1970 at 2640; 1997 at 2480.
what is causing the decrease? embargo? lack of Russian aid? won't that
affect cuban health stats unfavorably in the future?
norm
1970 was a particularly good time for the
health.
norm
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4457] Re: RE: Castro on US elections.
BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
The Guardian (London), Monday Oct. 2, 2000
By Sarah
man S NSSC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:13 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4471] RE: Re: RE: Castro on US elections (Britain studies
Cuban health care)
your stats are consistent withe the UN ones i just posted.
right, maybe the rest of the world,
From: Louis Proyect:
Since most Americans define political participation on the basis of going
into an election booth every four years and pulling a lever for one or
another candidate of the same party (Democrat-Republican), it takes a mental
adjustment to think in other terms.
On 15 Nov 00, at 12:48, Louis Proyect wrote:
Furthermore,
I would put forward the rather contrarian notion--at least on PEN-L--that
there is more artistic and political freedom than anywhere else in Latin
America or the Caribbeans. Since most Americans define political
participation on the
but what about the apparatchiks? won't they eventually form "The New Class"
(Djilas) and wreck the cuban system from within?
norm
There are no privileges associated with party membership or in holding
management positions in the Cuban state sector. In fact, this is one of the
reasons Cuban
Lou posted:
The best news is Hugo
Chavez's announcement that Venezuela will supply Cuba oil on a barter
basis--Cuba will supply trained medical personnel.
And this fact shows how essential oil has will be for a functioning
economy. No oil, no socialism. While I've disagreed with Mark Jones
lto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 5:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4224] Re: Castro on US elections.
Norm wrote:
US has no EFFECTIVE change in govt in 41 years, but Cuba has NONE
whatsoever
in that time span.
The presence or absence of changes in political representa
- if they are available. engineers love facts!
norm
-Original Message-
From: Justin Schwartz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4240] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
I am not nearly as aggressive a defender of Cuba
to speak more accurately, i should compare per income quintiles btwn Cuba
and US taking acount purchasing power parity. also, unemployment figures
and other social indicators (crime, homeless, housing, etc.).
anyone out there have those data for Cuba? if not, why not? wouldn't Fidel
want to
-Original Message-
From: Justin Schwartz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4240] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
I am not nearly as aggressive a defender of Cuba as Yoshie, and I am very
concerned about the lack
it to the
politicians and hope this will overcome the resistance of the "haves".
(as you can see, i'm on a roll again today.)
norm
-Original Message-
From: Bill Burgess [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 12:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4253] Re
rom: Rob Schaap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4401] Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
G'day Norman,
Can't help you with too many facts - perhaps Louis might come to the rescue.
But Cubans do enjoy universa
however, the fly in the ointment of Cuban achievements is the boat people
risking their lives heading for the US. if things are so good there, then
why risk life and limb to leave a good thing?
norm
Because the United States will not allow automatic issuance of visas in
Cuba. Castro has
agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head of the "dictatorship of the proletariat",
has improved the lot of the masses over their pre-revolutionary conditions.
for years, so did the Bolsheviks and Chinese CP for their masses. from my
ethical viewpoint those changes are commendable: better to have a
Isn't forty years of this experiment enough? It seems kind of cruel
to the people of Cuba to let it continue...
Brad DeLong
***
You're right. Let's all call the White House and Congress and tell them to
act like adults rather than imperialists and end the embargo.
Ian
How about ending the experiments in El Salvador and Guatamala? Those
experiments with the market are not "kind of cruel" but brutal.
I don't understand how capitalism is judged only by US and Europe and not how it
is functioning in Indonesia, etc.
Gene Coyle
Brad DeLong wrote:
agreed,
As opposed to what, Brad, the sort of lovely regimes we've installed and
supported all over Latin and Central AMerica? We destroyed Nicaragua's
revolution--are the Nicaraguans better off? I have profound unhappiness with
the lack of democracy in Cuba, but unlike the countries in the US
at the facts - if they are available. engineers love facts!
norm
-Original Message-
From: Justin Schwartz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4240] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
I am not nearly as aggressive
irrelevant.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Mikalac Norman S NSSC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4397] RE: Re: Castro on US elections.
agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head of the "dictato
Norman S NSSC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:09 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4403] RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
yes, i know the US has treated Cuba and other S.A. countries shabbily ever
since it became a world power. can't do much
Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Brad DeLong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 12:00 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4406] Re: RE: Re: Castro on US elections.
agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head of the "dictatorship of the proletariat",
ha
up in Cuba. if US boats start heading south, then
it's time the US adopted Fidel's system!
norm
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:4401] Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections
, November 14, 2000 1:26 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4415] Re: RE: Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
Norm,
No. The relevant comparisons are with other
Latin American and Caribbean nations. On those
measures the lot of the poorest people in Cuba,
and even those in the median positions, look pretty
, November 08, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4155] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
Fidel speaking:
"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party systems, has
two parties that are so perfectly similar in their methods, objectives
and goals that they have practically created the
]' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 2:29 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4421] RE: Castro on US elections.
i would like to remind the posters of the theme of the initial posts (see
below). we seemed to have strayed.
i understand that lefties, like ideologues of other persuasions, like to
extol
Isn't forty years of this experiment enough? It seems kind of cruel
to the people of Cuba to let it continue...
Brad DeLong
***
You're right. Let's all call the White House and Congress and tell them to
act like adults rather than imperialists and end the embargo.
Ian
On this subject (as
by the
most powerful country in the world it does fairly well.
CHeers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Mikalac Norman S NSSC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 8:51 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:4397] RE: Re: Castro on US elections.
agreed, Fidel, a dictator, head
4, 2000 1:24 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4421] RE: Castro on US elections.
i would like to remind the posters of the theme of the initial posts (see
below). we seemed to have strayed.
i understand that lefties, like ideologues of other persuasions, like to
extol the virtues of their Weltanscha
Ken Hanly wrote:
[clip]
[clip[
i understand that lefties, like ideologues of other persuasions, like to
extol the virtues of their Weltanschaungen, but when the illusions become
grotesque, then i have to object.
It is amusing how often the plaints of red-baiters reduce to one empty
I agree that Brad's illusions are grotesque. It in no way follows from what
Fidel says that no change in government is superior to changes in government.
Does it follow from what Fidel does that no change in government is
superior to changes in government?
But the idea of a gerontocrat who
clue what to do.
- Original Message -
From: Brad DeLong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4448] Re: Re: RE: Castro on US elections.
I agree that Brad's illusions are grotesque. It in no way follows from
what
Fidel says that no cha
This discussion about Castro is going nowhere. Brad knew, I feel confident, was
sort of response his comments would provoke. Others are pushing the heat up
even further. It's obviously time to stop.
Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose Castro were to hold an
election. Suppose he
Let me ask a different type of question. Suppose Castro were to hold an
election. Suppose he had every intention of making it free and
fair. Wouldn't
it be a disaster? It would be open season for the CIA to try to do everything
it could to muck things up.
Can you imagine how much money
The US has had no effective change of goverment in 41 years. Capital has
ruled throughout.
Such an incisive analysis. Are we next to be told that there is no
fundamental distinction between the Nazi party and Lyndon Johnson
because they are both forms of rule of the bourgeoisie?
It's amazing
someone wrote:
The US has had no effective change of goverment in 41 years. Capital has
ruled throughout.
Brad wrote:
Such an incisive analysis. Are we next to be told that there is no
fundamental distinction between the Nazi party and Lyndon Johnson because
they are both forms of rule of the
I am glad you appreciate my analysis. There are important differences,
important enough to support other capitalist nations
in a war against Germany. However, the US apparently did not think these
differences warranted going to war except very late in the game. In fact
many supported the Nazi
.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Brad DeLong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4155] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party systems, has
two parties that a
ccurate analogy.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Brad DeLong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:4155] Re: Re: Castro on US elections.
"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party syste
Norm wrote:
US has no EFFECTIVE change in govt in 41 years, but Cuba has NONE whatsoever
in that time span.
The presence or absence of changes in political representatives a la
liberal democracy does not tell us much about a given nation's
political direction. Cuba has undergone much social
At 12:36 PM 09/11/00 -0500, Norm wrote:
OK, health care is worse than in W.Europe and some don't have it at all in
the US, but it's far better for most US citizens than just about anywhere
else.
Far better for most US citizens? I doubt this.
But more to the point - why is _health_ in the US so
Largely true, but what reform, short of a revolution could change this?
Or, to be more practical, what reform to change this, could contribute to a
revolutionary movement?
Chris Burford
London
At 22:40 04/11/00 -0600, you wrote:
"The United States, such a vocal advocate of multi-party
49 matches
Mail list logo
