>>> Brad De Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/14/00 04:47PM >>>
>
>CB: We don't have to debate anything, because we haven't disagreed
>on what you say.
>
>Socialism as "The aggressive wave of the future " [over 1945-1980]
>is your continuous falsehood alone, here.
Ummm...
It's Baran and Sweezy's.
>
>CB: We don't have to debate anything, because we haven't disagreed
>on what you say.
>
>Socialism as "The aggressive wave of the future " [over 1945-1980]
>is your continuous falsehood alone, here.
Ummm...
It's Baran and Sweezy's. Go debate them...
Brad DeLong
Devine writes...
>>>The USSR was always "encircled" and mostly was trying to develop their own
economic powers. While they did meddle in the other superpower's sphere of
influence, they did not attack it. (I don't think that this was due to the
soviet leaders' benevolence as much as their need
At 11:38 AM 2/14/00 -0800, you wrote:
>>The USSR had to keep pace with the militarist U.S. to protect itself from
>>another holocaust as committed by "NATO" 1919 and the capitalist Nazi
>>army in the 1940's.
NATO in 1919?
Brad writes:
>Ummm...
>How quickly they forget.
>
>The world "socialist
>The USSR had to keep pace with the militarist U.S. to protect itself
>from another holocaust as committed by "NATO" 1919 and the
>capitalist Nazi army in the 1940's.
>
>
>CB
Ummm...
How quickly they forget.
The world "socialist camp" was on the *offensive* between 1945 and...
call it 1980
>>> Brad De Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/13/00 10:35AM >>>
>
>Or that the USSR developed rapidly, was then wiped out during WWII, rebuilt
>again.
>
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany and
the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't call
the US
>Brad De Long wrote:
>
>>Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany
>>and the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't
>>call the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the
>>recovery of the defeated axis powers...
>
>According to Maddison's
>I haven't seen your book Michael. But on the negative side,
>capitalism certainly
>steers scientific development in directions which have proven to be
>harmful. It has
>also impeded development of science that could be beneficial. I
>don't doubt that it
>is a double edged sword. I think that o
e institutional mechanisms mediating
resource use, whatever the form of ownership? This is the question. mf
-Original Message-
From: Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2000 12:58 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:16404] Re: Re: Re: Re:
Brad writes:
>It is odd, and I do not understand, just why it was that
>really-existing-socialism was so *lousy* at those parts of economic
>activity where externalities are rampant and decentralized atomistic
>decision making works worst.
>
>In technological development and in pollution contro
At 07:35 AM 02/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>>Or that the USSR developed rapidly, was then wiped out during WWII, rebuilt
>>again.
>
>Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany and the
>USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't call the
>USSR's post-WWII r
I am surprised that YOU are surprised by the former USSR's failure in the
environmentr, etc. Perhaps this comes from having an economist's perception
of the world. My social science training was in political science, so it
seems quite natural to me. The USSR did badly in the environmental area
Brad De Long wrote:
>Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany
>and the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't
>call the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the
>recovery of the defeated axis powers...
According to Maddison's stats
>
>Or that the USSR developed rapidly, was then wiped out during WWII, rebuilt
>again.
>
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany and
the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't call
the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the recove
Rod, in my Class Warfare book I discussed how capitalism impedes scientific
development.
Rod Hay wrote:
> The incentives provided by capitalism certainly lead to an acceleration of
> scientific development. Capitalism also provided a surplus which could finance
> time away from more mundane econ
The incentives provided by capitalism certainly lead to an acceleration of
scientific development. Capitalism also provided a surplus which could finance
time away from more mundane economic activities. The advent of mass education
expanded the talent pool from which scientists could be drawn.
Ro
Brad De Long wrote:
> I think that you would have to distinguish between
> "science", "research", and "development" in order to answer them. And think
> hard about the fact that it was not in producing the heavy industrial goods
> of the second industrial revolution but in developing and produc
Some idle speculations, if I may ...
I reckon we'd have to say science is capitalist science if it's done within
capitalist relations. Even publicly-funded science has been taking on a
more applied flavour over the last decade here. And the applications are
chosen with market appeal in mind. T
> How much "progress" occurs
>because of science? Do we attribute science to capitalism or can we
>consider the scientific process to be "non-capitalist?"
Good and hard questions. I think that you would have to distinguish between
"science", "research", and "development" in order to answer them
>
>Lysenko was hardly "science" any more than the reserach by the Tobacco
>Institute or Hernnstein & Murray is science.
>
Exactly my point...
In a message dated 00-02-12 21:52:16 EST, you write:
<< > How much "progress" occurs
>because of science? Do we attribute science to capitalism or can we
>consider the scientific process to be "non-capitalist?"
Good and hard questions. I think that you would have to distinguish between
"
I haven't seen your book Michael. But on the negative side, capitalism certainly
steers scientific development in directions which have proven to be harmful. It has
also impeded development of science that could be beneficial. I don't doubt that it
is a double edged sword. I think that on balance
"William S. Lear" wrote:
> Second, this rather pathetic belief that
> Capitalism is Evil, and not a highly complex intertwined mix of
> variegated Good and Bad.
The first point judges the second. The view that capitalism is
a mixture of Good and Bad is as pathetic, and for the same
reasons (i
Sorry, it was Jim _Blaut_ (author of "The colonizer's model of the world
") that I was referring to.
At 02:53 PM 2/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
>That settles my Marxist conscience, which insists that capitalism
> > produces a surplus-product (unlike, say, Jim Blau (sp?), who seemed to
> > being sayi
In a message dated 2/11/00 11:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Typical 2d International Kautskyite rubbish.
>>
Comrade, this is irony, not provocation. The quote is from the Manifesto, so
Marx & not Kautsky--a thinker whom I hold i
> Child mortality is a case in point. For example, even in the prosperous
> United States, child mortality is extraordinarily high in places, such as
> Harlem -- higher than in Bangladesh. It is very low in prosperous areas.
> Michael Perelman
Immense disparity of wealth has devastating consequ
Jim Devine wrote:
>The lower infant mortality rate seems mostly a result of government
>investment in public health (rather than relying on the market).
But greater wealth and scientific progress - both of which are
products of capitalism - are what made government investment and the
science
I don't get it. The history of Jews doesn't matter (Irish, whatever), what matters is
that white people who wouldn't have regarded my ancestors as white kept slaves. The
history doesn't matter that immediate descendents hated my ancestors almost as much as
they hated blacks, passed effective im
> Some years ago Johan Galtung was part of study that calculated loss
> of potential lifespan from persistent deprivation - insufficient
> food, shelter, health care - associated with social inequality.
> Norwegian political scientist Tord Hoivik termed such loss 'structural
> violence' because it
JKS wrote:
>As to reparations, to make sense of the notion, if you are seriously
advocating it, you have to decide >what your theory of justice is.
George DeMartino did a very good paper a few years ago at one of Richard
America's NEA sessions that looked at Rawls vs. Sen on justice and argued
p
>But you are living in the USA not in Central Asia. You have benefited from
>slavery and exploitation of black persons as have I and every other white
>person. This is our history and it is we who have to confront it.
>
>Michael Yates
>
Very true. But does "confronting it" have to mean giving m
>Child mortality is a case in point. For example, even in the prosperous
>United States, child mortality is extraordinarily high in places, such as
>Harlem -- higher than in Bangladesh. It is very low in prosperous areas.
>
>My basic question, Brad, relates to this use of averages without an tak
That settles my Marxist conscience, which insists that capitalism
> produces a surplus-product (unlike, say, Jim Blau (sp?), who seemed to
> being saying otherwise, blaming profits totally on redistribution).
>
For the record, it's Joel Blau, and somebody else must have said this, because I
never
It does not matter that your ancestors suffered in Europe. They, and especially their
children, still gained here from being white. And I haven't noticed that concern for
whites has ever benefited black people much. For me it's not a matter of white guilt
but of elemental justice. Why is i
>But you are living in the USA not in Central Asia. You have benefited from
slavery and exploitation of black persons as have I and every other white
person. This is our history and it is we who have to confront it.
* * *
True enough. But I, at least, am living in AMerica because my Jewish
>This exactly demonstrates the point I was making. You are arguing that the
>existence of another wrong means that justice is unnecessary in another
>case, a seriously logically flawed argument. No justice should be sought in
>one case unless all other injustices are remedied?
No. But giving m
I wrote:
>>another comment: the above suggests that perhaps capitalism has _never_
>>produced a surplus-product. Rather, all of the surplus that was spent on
>>capitalist accumulation and rich people's luxuries and the like was
>>simply the result of _redistribution_ from other people.
Brad wr
>'Cute little quips,'
>dismissiveness, etc., show an insensitivity that should not be tolerated.
>Mat
>
Go learn something about the experience of French Protestants,
Spanish Jews, Gypsies, Poles during World War II, Soviet or Chinese
or North Korean peasants, Cambodian city-dwellers, the Albig
Message-
From: Brad De Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:45 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:16249] Re: Re: RE: reparations
>>'Cute little quips,'
>>dismissiveness, etc., show an insensitivity that should not
But you are living in the USA not in Central Asia. You have benefited from
slavery and exploitation of black persons as have I and every other white
person. This is our history and it is we who have to confront it.
Michael Yates
Brad De Long wrote:
> >'Cute little quips,'
> >dismissiveness, e
Child mortality is a case in point. For example, even in the prosperous
United States, child mortality is extraordinarily high in places, such as
Harlem -- higher than in Bangladesh. It is very low in prosperous areas.
My basic question, Brad, relates to this use of averages without an taking
i
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