Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:31 AM Raymond Brinzer wrote: > > So, on a practical note: I'd like it if PostgreSQL supported > alternate languages for queries, as it does for stored procedures. I agree, and actually sent a patch some time ago to allow usage of third-party parser(s). They can coexist

Re: SQL queries as sets: was The tragedy of SQL

Oh, yeah, wow. Big topic. My original post in the series is in significant part about how SQL hides this sort of thing from you. A table is a set:  a set of true facts, all having the same structure, so you can operate on all of them with any operation on the individual rows. Multiple tables,

Re: Basic Questions about PostgreSQL.

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, A Z wrote: > -In PostgreSQL, what is the difference between Roles, Groups > > There is none, aside from convention. Roles are generic, groups don’t get login rights while users do. You might want to clarify what you mean by policy since referencing the “create

Basic Questions about PostgreSQL.

-In PostgreSQL, what is the difference between Roles, Groups, and Policies exactly? What are they each, how do they relate to one another, and which one(s) can be assigned to another? -Is there a simple, immediate, straightforward way to temporarily disable PostgreSQL database use of all other

SQL queries as sets: was The tragedy of SQL

Rich Shepard said on Tue, 14 Sep 2021 05:49:07 -0700 (PDT) >On Mon, 13 Sep 2021, Guyren Howe wrote: > >> They are making a decent decision. SQL is a *fucking terrible* >> language, which I don’t blame them for not wanting to learn. > >>> SQL is not the problem. Problem are the devs. I love SQL.

Re: To JIT (or not!) in Ubuntu packages

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:30 PM Ben Chobot wrote: > So I've installed > http://apt.postgresql.org/pub/repos/apt/pool/14/p/postgresql-14/postgresql-14_14~beta3-1.pgdg18.04+1_arm64.deb, > after which I see: Ahhh, so you're on 18.04, an old LTS. I remember now, there was this issue in LLVM 3.9 on

Re: To JIT (or not!) in Ubuntu packages

Thomas Munro wrote on 9/14/21 5:50 PM: On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 10:11 AM Ben Chobot wrote: We've noticed that the Ubuntu postgresql-12 package has --with-llvm enabled on x86_64, but not on aarch64. Does anybody know if this was intentional, or just an oversight? For what it's worth, it seems

Re: Roles

Thank you for the clarification. On Tue, 14 Sep 2021, 18:11 Adrian Klaver, wrote: > On 9/14/21 1:13 PM, Gambhir Singh wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm having 4 Databases in the AWS RDS Cluster. Just wanna to know how to > > create roles which are specific to each database, because when I'm > > creatin

Re: The tragedy of SQL

Hi Michael, Appropriate comments interspersed below. I'm happy writing SQL and moderately competent using it.  But like all the languages I've used, without exception, it has its pain points. Cheers, Gavin On 15/09/21 11:25, Michael Nolan wrote: Of all the languages I wrote in, I think SNOB

Re: To JIT (or not!) in Ubuntu packages

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 10:11 AM Ben Chobot wrote: > We've noticed that the Ubuntu postgresql-12 package has --with-llvm > enabled on x86_64, but not on aarch64. Does anybody know if this was > intentional, or just an oversight? > > For what it's worth, it seems the beta postgresql-14 package for

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 9/14/21 12:51 PM, Mladen Gogala wrote: Replies in-line On 9/14/21 01:51, Guyren Howe wrote: They are making a decent decision. SQL is a *fucking terrible* language, which I don’t blame them for not wanting to learn. Based on what criteria? The whole industry, programming languages, inf

Re: The tragedy of SQL

So, on a practical note: I'd like it if PostgreSQL supported alternate languages for queries, as it does for stored procedures. Yes, I know this will strike some of you as an abomination. I think we can take that part as read. ;-) I see two ways of going about this. The quick & dirty way woul

Re: The tragedy of SQL

Of all the languages I wrote in, I think SNOBOL was the most fun to write in, and LISP the least fun. Control Data assembler language programming was probably the most precise, because you could crash the OS with a single mis-placed character, something I did more than once. In a graduate-level c

Re: Roles

On 9/14/21 1:13 PM, Gambhir Singh wrote: Hi, I'm having 4 Databases in the AWS RDS Cluster. Just wanna to know how to create roles which are specific to each database, because when I'm creating roles in one Database, they are visible in other Databases. You can't, roles are global objects in

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 15/09/21 10:30, Peter J. Holzer wrote: On 2021-09-14 16:51:39 -0400, Mladen Gogala wrote: As software engineers, we are very much opposed to poetry, especially those among us using Perl. When I learned Perl, Perl poetry was a real thing! hp Perl is too verbose, use APL!  See: htt

Re: The tragedy of SQL

It is kind of a purists fallacy. Point being if you could just write ASM code it would be the best. When in reality, a database is used not because it is the best technical database, but is used by many people. Something that other developers can pickup and use without reading a 200 page manual an

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 15/09/21 04:10, Michael Nolan wrote: I started programming in 1967, and over the last 50+ years I've programmed in more languages than I would want to list.  I spent a decade writing in FORTRAN on a GA 18/30 (essentially a clone of the IBM 1130) with limited memory space, so you had to write

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 2021-09-14 16:51:39 -0400, Mladen Gogala wrote: > As software engineers, we are very much opposed to poetry, especially > those among us using Perl. When I learned Perl, Perl poetry was a real thing! hp -- _ | Peter J. Holzer| Story must make more sense than reality. |_|_) |

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 2021-09-14 17:01:40 -0400, Mladen Gogala wrote: > On 9/14/21 15:57, Guyren Howe wrote: > > Verbosity. Redundancy. Lack of orthogonality. Resemblance to English. > > Verbosity is a feature, as well as the resemblance to English. The language > is meant to be understood by accountants. Once upon

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 9/14/21 15:57, Guyren Howe wrote: Verbosity. Redundancy. Lack of orthogonality. Resemblance to English. Verbosity is a feature, as well as the resemblance to English. The language is meant to be understood by accountants. Once upon a time people were using something called "COmmon Busine

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 9/14/21 16:07, Raymond Brinzer wrote: By analogy: Arabic and Roman numerals both describe the natural numbers. Hence, they have the same mathematical properties. Spending a little time doing algebra with Roman numerals should convince anyone, however, that how you express a concept matter

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 4:16 PM FWS Neil wrote: > What people hate about SQL is that the programmer has to optimize SQL to get > acceptable performance. Oh, no, that's just one thing. :-) And to be fair, it's a hard problem. We're asking for an optimizer, written for databases generally, to o

Re: The tragedy of SQL

> On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Michael Nolan wrote: > > I started programming in 1967, and over the last 50+ years I've programmed in > more languages than I would want to list. I spent a decade writing in > FORTRAN on a GA 18/30 (essentially a clone of the IBM 1130) with limited > memory

Roles

Hi, I'm having 4 Databases in the AWS RDS Cluster. Just wanna to know how to create roles which are specific to each database, because when I'm creating roles in one Database, they are visible in other Databases. Thanks & Regards Gambhir Singh

Re: The tragedy of SQL

Exactly. SQL is the roman numerals of relational databases. On Sep 14, 2021, 13:08 -0700, Raymond Brinzer , wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 3:58 PM Guyren Howe wrote: > > You’re confusing SQL with the relational model. Datalog and Quel and > > Tutorial D and other database languages and systems

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 3:58 PM Guyren Howe wrote: > You’re confusing SQL with the relational model. Datalog and Quel and Tutorial > D and other database languages and systems can and did provide those features > also. By analogy: Arabic and Roman numerals both describe the natural numbers. H

Re: The tragedy of SQL

The big advantage for SQL is that it has remained relatively constant and universal for ~40 years. There is effectively one major relational database language that you need to learn and that is that. Once you learn it you can transport your knowledge to nearly every other relational database enviro

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 9/14/21 1:53 PM, Mladen Gogala wrote: On 9/14/21 02:18, Rob Sargent wrote: All languages are fucking terrible. I like English. It's not very complex and it allows me to express myself very well. You should see my native tongue, Croatian language, from the group of Slavic languages. It's

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Sep 14, 2021, 12:51 -0700, Mladen Gogala , wrote: > Replies in-line > On 9/14/21 01:51, Guyren Howe wrote: > > They are making a decent decision. SQL is a *fucking terrible* language, > > which I don’t blame them for not wanting to learn. > Based on what criteria? Verbosity. Redundancy. Lack of

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 9/14/21 02:18, Rob Sargent wrote: All languages are fucking terrible. I like English. It's not very complex and it allows me to express myself very well. You should see my native tongue, Croatian language, from the group of Slavic languages. It's fucking terrible. -- Mladen Gogala Data

Re: The tragedy of SQL

Replies in-line On 9/14/21 01:51, Guyren Howe wrote: They are making a decent decision. SQL is a *fucking terrible* language, which I don’t blame them for not wanting to learn. Based on what criteria? The whole industry, programming languages, infrastructure, everything would have develop

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 2:41 PM Brian Dunavant wrote: > I have the opposite perspective. As a dev/manager, SQL is much more powerful > at getting data storage from abstract concept, into a usable structure, than > any programming language I've had the (mis)fortune of using. I've long > sinc

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:54 PM Raymond Brinzer wrote: > > So, the affection I have for SQL is due to it being a gateway to a > great idea; my frustration is that it's a bottleneck in getting to > that same idea. > > I have the opposite perspective. As a dev/manager, SQL is much more powerful at

Re: The tragedy of SQL

This is a subject which is important to me, but I find discussing it often goes poorly. Most people (not necessarily those on this list) don't distinguish between SQL and the relational model. When you criticize SQL the language, people tend to defend relational databases; when you praise relatio

Re: Fastest option to transfer db?

On Sep 14, 2021, at 1:42 AM, Tomas Pospisek wrote: > > I'm potentiall facing the same problem and would be interested in the > solution. Is there any particular howto you followed? I used https://hevodata.com/learn/postgresql-logical-replication/

Re: The tragedy of SQL

I didn't start in 1967, but 1984, I'm in agreement with the bad programmers premise. Since the beginning there have always been lots of languages. It is my opinion, the more languages and concepts you know the better your success on the project. Heck I didn't use triggers till late 90's, funn

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On 9/14/21 10:10 AM, Michael Nolan wrote: I started programming in 1967, and over the last 50+ years I've programmed in more languages than I would want to list.  I spent a decade writing in FORTRAN on a GA 18/30 (essentially a clone of the IBM 1130) with limited memory space, so you had to wri

Re: The tragedy of SQL

I started programming in 1967, and over the last 50+ years I've programmed in more languages than I would want to list. I spent a decade writing in FORTRAN on a GA 18/30 (essentially a clone of the IBM 1130) with limited memory space, so you had to write EFFICIENT code, something that is a bit of

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 9:01 AM Rob Sargent wrote: > > ORMs a function of poor development culture and vendor advocacy, not > > the fault of SQL. If developers don't understand or are unwilling to > > use joins in language A, they won't in language B either. > > Back in the day, within IBM there w

Re: The tragedy of SQL

There was also QUEL. The original language for Ingress out of UCB. > On 09/14/2021 9:51 AM David Goodenough > wrote: > > > On Tuesday, 14 September 2021 14:06:13 BST Merlin Moncure wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 12:32 AM Guyren Howe wrote: > > > If I had $5 mill

Re: The tragedy of SQL

> ORMs a function of poor development culture and vendor advocacy, not > the fault of SQL. If developers don't understand or are unwilling to > use joins in language A, they won't in language B either. > > merlin Back in the day, within IBM there were two separate relational databases.  Sy

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tuesday, 14 September 2021 14:06:13 BST Merlin Moncure wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 12:32 AM Guyren Howe wrote: > > If I had $5 million to invest in a startup, I would hire as many of the > > core Postgres devs as I could to make a new database with all the > > sophistication of Postgres bu

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 12:32 AM Guyren Howe wrote: > If I had $5 million to invest in a startup, I would hire as many of the core > Postgres devs as I could to make a new database with all the sophistication > of Postgres but based on Datalog (or something similar). (Or maybe add > Datalog to

Re: The tragedy of SQL

> > As a non-SQL expert who's used postgres since 1997 I've come to believe the > basic issue is that SQL is based on sets, neither procedural or object > oriented. Few people think in sets so they try to fit SQL into what they > know rather than understand the how sets work. > Yes, that's 100% co

Re: The tragedy of SQL

On Mon, 13 Sep 2021, Guyren Howe wrote: They are making a decent decision. SQL is a *fucking terrible* language, which I don’t blame them for not wanting to learn. SQL is not the problem. Problem are the devs. I love SQL. I hate orms. The problem with databases is people refuse to treat it as

Re: The tragedy of SQL

Is it possible that this is mainly an emotional discussion? Raymond Brinzer schreef op di 14-09-2021 om 02:39 [-0400]: > Many languages are awesome. I'm always astonished at what great > things people have come up with, over the years; it's been a > wonderfully fertile field. We would certainly

Re: Fastest option to transfer db?

I'm potentiall facing the same problem and would be interested in the solution. Is there any particular howto you followed? Also at some point I'd like to cut of the link between the two DBs promote the copy to be the master and delete the original DB. Have you figured out the correct step for