Not that I terribly mind the lengthy discussions we've had over the
last little while. It's given me lots to think about and I've learned
a few things to boot, which is why I'm here to begin with.
Man pauses, contemplates thinking statue as he comes upon it. Then,
turns on mp3 player and con
On 2/20/07, Levi Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I assume that you mean that I've argued myself into a circle. It does
look a little bit like that, but any circularity is due to a failure
to communicate exactly what I mean. I'd be happy to explain further
and clarify any questions anyone has
"Alex Esplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> And we've rounded the last corner into an infinite loop...
I assume that you mean that I've argued myself into a circle. It does
look a little bit like that, but any circularity is due to a failure
to communicate exactly what I mean. I'd be happy to
Levi Pearson wrote:
Dave Smith [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
When you say that MIT's CS program is grounded in practical
applications, are you referring specifically to the fact that a
student can complete the MIT CS program without coding anything except
Lisp? Because that's what came to m
On 2/20/07, Levi Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Furthermore, the high-level design of programs is largely independant
of the specific tools used. It doesn't matter whether those skills
and the corresponding understanding of theory were gained in the
context of programming in Lisp or C#. Tho
Dave Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Levi Pearson wrote:
>> What, in particular, do you find impractical about Lisp?
>
> I think Lisp is neat, just like my R/C planes. Practical, though? Not
> really. By the way, please don't take this analogy too far.
I have no intention of doing anything wha
Michael Brailsford wrote:
I mean if even DeVry can produce really good engineers, maybe good engineering
has more to do with the individual than with the school.
Finally.
Schools don't produce good engineers. Good engineers produce good engineers.
My company just hired one of the best pro
Levi Pearson wrote:
What, in particular, do you find impractical about Lisp?
I think Lisp is neat, just like my R/C planes. Practical, though? Not
really. By the way, please don't take this analogy too far.
Another example: My office mate is writing a small operating system in
his own varia
February 20, 2007 2:57:55 PM
Subject: Re: UVSC BYU U of U etc was"Software Engineering
Dave Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> When you say that MIT's CS program is grounded in practical
> applications, are you referring specifically to the fact that a
> student can com
On Tue, February 20, 2007 1:54 pm, Mister E wrote:
> Hill, Greg wrote:
>> It's not an endorsement, unless it's an endorsement of the fact that
>> people no longer understand the difference between a trade school and a
>> University. I never faulted the people for getting what they want,
>> anyway
Dave Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> When you say that MIT's CS program is grounded in practical
> applications, are you referring specifically to the fact that a
> student can complete the MIT CS program without coding anything except
> Lisp? Because that's what came to my mind. Grounded in
Hill, Greg wrote:
It's not an endorsement, unless it's an endorsement of the fact that
people no longer understand the difference between a trade school and a
University. I never faulted the people for getting what they want,
anyway. I just said it was a waste of money (i.e. I consider it a was
Levi Pearson wrote:
Technically, the distinction that a University has is that it grants
post-graduate degrees. 'Theory' doesn't come into the picture,
especially at the undergraduate level. Thus we have schools like MIT,
which has an excellent CS program, but strives to be grounded in
practica
"Hill, Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It's not an endorsement, unless it's an endorsement of the fact that
> people no longer understand the difference between a trade school and a
> University. I never faulted the people for getting what they want,
> anyway. I just said it was a waste of mo
> So, the people you talked to got exactly what they wanted out of the
> program there? Sounds like an endorsement to me. The CNS programs
> are now fairly flexible, and you can avoid scary-looking theory
> courses if you want, or you can take lots of them, as I'm doing.
> Perhaps things were not
Levi Pearson wrote:
"Hill, Greg" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Maybe things have changed; I was basing this on what everyone I've known
who went to UVSC told me. Also, my wife is taking Multimedia there
right now, and pretty much all she has learned is how to use the tools
to create multim
"Hill, Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Maybe things have changed; I was basing this on what everyone I've known
> who went to UVSC told me. Also, my wife is taking Multimedia there
> right now, and pretty much all she has learned is how to use the tools
> to create multimedia. Nothing yet abo
> "Hill, Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > This is all coming from someone who only went to University for only
a
> > year before going into a career, so maybe that skews my perception.
Not
> > having the advanced theory hasn't really hindered my ability to make
> > good money as a programmer,
Levi Pearson wrote:
Mister E <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I think a lot of this conversation is silly. I find it amusing
reading comments from people patting themselves on the back for
obtaining a degree and/or attending a particular institution of higher
learning. An institution can only "in
On AD 2007 February 16 Friday 04:04:40 PM -0700, Levi Pearson wrote:
> Just where is the obvious separation between theory and practice in
> physics? I'm not understanding your argument that computer science is
> different. I mean, the only reason particle accelerators exist is to
> do physics, b
"Daniel C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Can you give some examples in CS? It just occurred to me that just
> because I've never heard of such a thing doesn't mean it doesn't
> exist. You listed dreaming up new complexity classes, is there
> anything else?
I already mentioned quantum computing
On 2/16/07, Levi Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm sure we're in agreement here, but I'm just trying to point out
that there are eminently practical applications of both physics and
computer science, but there are also pure theory areas in each
Can you give some examples in CS? It just oc
Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Ok, I knew that wouldn't come across right. Physicists do of course
> build very expensive toys. But wait, they don't build them. They design
> them and hire other people to build them. I said "stuff they dream up"
> because I have no idea what current resea
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 14:01 -0700, Levi Pearson wrote:
> Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Which is why Computer Scientists code, because code is basically an
> > expression of that thought. This is where the confusion comes from:
> > physicists generally don't build the stuff they dream
"Daniel C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It's not confusion, it's my point. In physics, there's an obvious
> separation between theory and practice. In Comp Sci, the only thing
> computers exist for is to run programs, so I have a really hard time
> understanding how someone can say "Well I'm ju
On 2/16/07, Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Which is why Computer Scientists code, because code is basically an
expression of that thought. This is where the confusion comes from:
It's not confusion, it's my point. In physics, there's an obvious
separation between theory and practice. I
Mister E <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I think a lot of this conversation is silly. I find it amusing
> reading comments from people patting themselves on the back for
> obtaining a degree and/or attending a particular institution of higher
> learning. An institution can only "institutionalize"
Levi Pearson wrote:
"Hill, Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
This is all coming from someone who only went to University for only a
year before going into a career, so maybe that skews my perception. Not
having the advanced theory hasn't really hindered my ability to make
good money as a progra
On 2/16/07, Daniel C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 2/16/07, Alex Esplin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you want to learn to write code you go to ITT or whatever tech
> school has a less painful, less long program and learn how to
> write code.
> The idea behind learning Computer Science ... is
"Daniel C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I would argue that you can't learn to code without learning the
> reasoning behind it to some extent. That learning to code and
> learning the theory behind your code goes hand in hand - you can't
> learn one without also learning the other. Since code an
On 2/16/07, Alex Esplin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you want to learn to write code you go to ITT or whatever tech
school has a less painful, less long program and learn how to
write code.
The idea behind learning Computer Science ... is that if you
learn to think about computing and why we
On Fri, 2007-02-16 at 14:09 -0700, Levi Pearson wrote:
> "Bryan Sant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I think large p0rn websites prove that to be false... Or true,
> > depending on how you think of it.
>
> I'm not sure what p0rn websites are supposed to have to do with
> Physics or CS theory.
h
"Bryan Sant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I think large p0rn websites prove that to be false... Or true,
> depending on how you think of it.
I'm not sure what p0rn websites are supposed to have to do with
Physics or CS theory.
--Levi
/*
PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.free
On 2/16/07, Levi Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
almost like Computer Science is a branch of Math! Wow, could CS
really be less about interacting with the real world than Physics?
I think large p0rn websites prove that to be false... Or true,
depending on how you think of it.
-Bryan
/*
P
On 2/15/07, Stuart Jansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I like money because I like eating and owning a quality computer. Past
that, it's not so important to me. Some people's needs expand to fit
their income only to discover that money can't buy happiness. Others
pick jobs that either (a) pay them
Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Which is why Computer Scientists code, because code is basically an
> expression of that thought. This is where the confusion comes from:
> physicists generally don't build the stuff they dream up (they do of
> course do experiments), so nobdoy confuses them
"Hill, Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> This is all coming from someone who only went to University for only a
> year before going into a career, so maybe that skews my perception. Not
> having the advanced theory hasn't really hindered my ability to make
> good money as a programmer, but I sti
On 2/15/07, Levi Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't think anyone here wants to work for peanuts to prove a point
to someone else. If someone chooses a low-paying job over a
high-paying job, it's probably because they are comfortable with the
low pay and really enjoy the work. Not everyo
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 13:09 -0700, Daniel C. wrote:
> On 2/16/07, Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >For the same reason that we have physicists, biologists, chemists, etc.
> >(theoretical) and engineers
> >(practical).
>
> Except that in physics, you can theorize something that you can't
"Daniel C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Except that in physics, you can theorize something that you can't put
> into practice. With computers, if you can theorize about something,
> you can also sit down and write a program that implements the theory
> almost as easily as you can theorize about
I know I was a little overboard on the my comment about those who can do
and those who can't teach.
I am still just a little bitter over some of my college experiences. I
agree that not all professors are lame maybe just a few professors that
I had are.
It seemed like the professors I had wo
On 2/16/07, Mark Higbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think the real point of going to a college or university is to get the
skills you need to find a good job.
If the college can't teach you any real skills then it is useless in my
opinion. My experience with BYU was you go to school to learn ho
Roberto Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I think the gist of this thread is that UVSC's CS program is more like
> that of a technical school (more of whatever-is-current-in-the-industry)
> versus BYU's more focused on theory program.
>
> There are colleges that teach exclusively the latest Java
On 2/16/07, Daniel C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've always been confused about the motivation for learning pure
_Science_, especially when dealing with something like computers.
What's the point of learning theory if you don't know how to apply it?
So you can get a job teaching theory to other
Mark Higbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> My experience with BYU was you go to school to learn how to learn on
> your own
Ding ding ding! Mark wins a prize!
The point of a University is to teach you how to think and how to
learn. Apparently you don't appreciate that, and maybe you didn't
pick i
On 2/16/07, Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For the same reason that we have physicists, biologists, chemists, etc.
(theoretical) and engineers
(practical).
Except that in physics, you can theorize something that you can't put
into practice. With computers, if you can theorize about som
> I think the real point of going to a college or university is to get
the
> skills you need to find a good job.
No that's the point of apprenticeship and trade schools. University was
always intended to provide an education and has only been seen as a
career-preparation academy in the last few d
On 2/16/07, Mark Higbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Besides anyone that is any good in CS is not going to settle for a
professor's salary.
*cough* Donald Knuth *cough*
/*
PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net
Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug
Don't fear the penguin.
*
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 12:20 -0700, Mark Higbee wrote:
> I think the real point of going to a college or university is to get the
> skills you need to find a good job.
I think the point of going to a university is to get an education. If
you just want skills there are cheaper faster and less pai
On Fri, Feb 16, 2007 at 11:50:42AM -0700, Daniel C. wrote:
> On 2/16/07, Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >If you're interested in a good university education in Computer
> >_Science_
>
> I've always been confused about the motivation for learning pure
> _Science_, especially when dealing w
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 11:50 -0700, Daniel C. wrote:
> On 2/16/07, Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >If you're interested in a good university education in Computer
> >_Science_
>
> I've always been confused about the motivation for learning pure
> _Science_, especially when dealing with so
I think the real point of going to a college or university is to get the
skills you need to find a good job.
If the college can't teach you any real skills then it is useless in my
opinion. My experience with BYU was you go to school to learn how to
learn on your own, since most of the profess
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 02:12:18PM -0700, jordy wrote:
>
> I assure you (as a graduate) that UVSC's placement program also sucks. :)
>
> One factor that hasn't been mentioned is that UVSC focuses on
> *marketable* degrees. IE, you don't see people majoring in Historical
> Russian Liturature a
On 2/16/07, Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you're interested in a good university education in Computer
_Science_
I've always been confused about the motivation for learning pure
_Science_, especially when dealing with something like computers.
What's the point of learning theory if y
On Thursday 15 February 2007 14:12, jordy wrote:
> Michael Brailsford wrote:
> > I think the difference is that BYU's alumni placement program sucks. At
> > least it did for me, but then I again, I was mostly worried about the
> > bank I would make.
>
> I assure you (as a graduate) that UVSC's pla
I know a guy that works in the finance department at UVSC. His rational
for the difference in pay is that a good portion of UVSC grads are
people that are already in the industry and have gone back to school to
get a degree. Therefor when they graduate the have both experience and
a degree =
In the initial interview, whether by phone or in person, the perspective
employee who communicates the following is most likely going to be among
the lead candidates. Once you are in the lead, negotiation for money
can begin. Make them want you first, then make them pay for it.
1. I want to
Tom Hanks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Well, I'm glad to learn that BYU is changing to meet the market
> demand. Ten years from now, BYU could be number 1.
While it would be great for BYU to do a better job getting its
graduates placed where they want to be, I'm very sad to see
universities cavi
y, February 16, 2007 9:53:08 AM
Subject: Re: UVSC BYU U of U etc was"Software Engineering (was Re: Java)
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 02:13 -0700, Scott Paul Robertson wrote:
They still take CS as a Science. If you want server administration you
go to the IT department.
BYU has a good CS pr
o know to succeed in my chosen field (once I got in).
-Michael
- Original Message
From: Hans Fugal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: plug@plug.org
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:53:08 AM
Subject: Re: UVSC BYU U of U etc was"Software Engineering (was Re: Java)
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 02
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 02:13 -0700, Scott Paul Robertson wrote:
> They still take CS as a Science. If you want server administration you
> go to the IT department.
BYU has a good CS program. BYU's CS deptartment is not a great vocational
programming program, and there's no reason it should be. If
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 12:46:59PM -0700, Stuart Jansen wrote:
> It is relatively easy to graduate from BYU without any real experience.
> They take the department name seriously: Computer _Science_. Not
> Software Engineering. Not Computer Programming.
>
> Maybe BYU is a good place to prepare for
On 2/15/07, Ryan Byrd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Irrespective of your reasons for working, a job interview is a negotiation.
How much money you end up working for largely depends on your actions during
that exercise. If you want to be employed for peanuts in order to convince
others that you defi
"Ryan Byrd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Irrespective of your reasons for working, a job interview is a negotiation.
> How much money you end up working for largely depends on your actions during
> that exercise. If you want to be employed for peanuts in order to convince
> others that you definit
lol :)
Irrespective of your reasons for working, a job interview is a negotiation.
How much money you end up working for largely depends on your actions during
that exercise. If you want to be employed for peanuts in order to convince
others that you definitely don't work for money, that's certai
"Ryan Byrd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Well now that's just silly. What kind of automatons just want to work for
> the thrill? That's something sort of stupid. You work for money.
Well now that's just silly. What kind of automatons just want to work
for the money? That's something sort of stu
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 17:49 -0700, Ryan Byrd wrote:
> > For what it's worth, I have interviewed students from all four colleges
> > listed and each time I interview a BYU student or graduate, the
> > interviewee's primary concern tends to be "How much money are you going
> > to pay me." I find stu
For what it's worth, I have interviewed students from all four colleges
listed and each time I interview a BYU student or graduate, the
interviewee's primary concern tends to be "How much money are you going
to pay me." I find students / graduates from the other colleges to be
much more of the "
Michael Brailsford wrote:
I think the difference is that BYU's alumni placement program sucks. At least
it did for me, but then I again, I was mostly worried about the bank I would
make.
I assure you (as a graduate) that UVSC's placement program also sucks. :)
One factor that hasn't been m
> For what it's worth, I have interviewed students from all four colleges
> listed and each time I interview a BYU student or graduate, the
> interviewee's primary concern tends to be "How much money are you going
> to pay me." I find students / graduates from the other colleges to be
> much m
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 12:49:37PM -0700, Bart Whiteley wrote:
>
> Unemployed people generally make less than $30k. Maybe it is simply the
> case that far more BYU grads simply don't seek full-time employment. Stay
> at home Moms or part-time working Moms and the like. This was mentioned
> bri
Grant Shipley wrote:
On 2/15/07, Dave Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Grant Shipley wrote:
> According to the 2005 Utah Foundation Report, UVSC bachelor degree
> graduates earn more money than graduates from any other Utah college
> or university.
Frankly I find that hard to believe. I don't k
55% of BYU BS degree grads earn less than 30K in their first year after
graduation and only 4% earned over 60K (compare that to almost twice as
many
from UVSC)
Quote: "UVSC graduates overwhelmingly lead the way in terms of employment
with 83.9% of its graduates in the workforce and 78.4% employe
x Users Group Mailing List
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:16:50 PM
Subject: Re: UVSC BYU U of U etc was"Software Engineering (was Re: Java)
>
> > Grant Shipley wrote:
> > > According to the 2005 Utah Foundation Report, UVSC bachelor degree
> > > graduates earn
On Thu, 2007-02-15 at 12:31 -0700, Daniel C. wrote:
> But the Comp. Sci. department, imho, just doesn't cut it.
I'm a BYU CS grad. After high school, if I'd known then what I know now
I would have thought twice before choosing BYU. I still might have
chosen BYU, but I'd probably have gotten a CE d
Most likely because it is next it impossible to have a full time job and
go to BYU. Plus BYU doesn't teach a lot of practical stuff in my
opinion. For example my younger brother graduated from BYU in computer
engineering he took a class where he had to program his own database
yet he has no
On 2/15/07, Grant Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't find it that hard to believe. Of the people who I graduated
from UVSC with we are all making greater than 80k a year and 30% of us
are making > 100k a year.
It could be the fact that most students who attend the CS program at
UVSC beg
On 2/15/07, Jeremy Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Quote: "UVSC graduates overwhelmingly lead the way in terms of employment
with 83.9% of its graduates in the workforce and 78.4% employed full-time.
The next highest was USU with 74.7% percent in the labor force. USU and UVSC
bachelor's graduat
> Grant Shipley wrote:
> > According to the 2005 Utah Foundation Report, UVSC bachelor degree
> > graduates earn more money than graduates from any other Utah college
> > or university.
Some interesting facts from the report (granted, the data is a couple of
years old):
55% of BYU BS degree g
On 2/15/07, Dave Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Grant Shipley wrote:
> According to the 2005 Utah Foundation Report, UVSC bachelor degree
> graduates earn more money than graduates from any other Utah college
> or university.
Frankly I find that hard to believe. I don't know much about UVSC's
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